Template:Did you know nominations/Jewish dairy restaurant

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron talk 21:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Jewish dairy restaurant

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• ... that Leon Trotsky frequented a Jewish dairy restaurant in the Bronx but refused to tip, and waiters retaliated by spilling hot soup on him?

• Source: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23162567

• Reviewed:

Created by Andrevan (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Andre🚐 09:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC).

• Not a full review, but the interesting thing about the article is the fact that Jewish dairy restaurants even exist in the first place, considering kosher laws. I'd suggest proposing hooks that focus specifically on that aspect, as least as possible options for the promoter, as the mere concept of the Jewish dairy restaurant is the elephant in the room here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Could you elaborate what you mean? Dairy restaurants are kosher. That is the entire point of them. The laws say not to mix milk and meat, that's why there isn't any meat at a dairyrestaurant. Andre🚐 12:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

As a non-Jew myself, I just thought that the actual concept was interesting by itself. It might not be as obvious to observant Jews of course since they may take it for granted, but especially to people from places where Jews are not very visible it might be unusual. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:02, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I see what you mean. Yeah maybe there could be an ALT1 like:

• ... that Jewish dairy restaurants specialize in food like cheese blintzes and vegetarian borscht to accommodate the kosher Jewish dietary rules on milk and meat?

A bit long perhaps? Andre🚐 14:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:DYKTRIM it could be shortened to something like "... that Jewish dairy restaurants specialize in food that accommodate the kosher Jewish dietary rules on milk and meat?" Would that be okay with you? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Sure sounds good. Andre🚐 00:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

• I do think the original hook is interesting, I only mentioned the suggestion above so that it could be offered as an option. It's probably best for a reviewer to make the final decision. I've slightly modified the original hook to give Trotsky's full name since not all readers may know who he is. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:39, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

• @Narutolovehinata5: Can I review the article or do my copyedits disqualify me? Viriditas (talk) 21:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

It might be safer to leave it to another editor to do the actual review of the article content, although you can probably do some of the more technical aspects like article creation, hook interest, etc. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I thought that was part of the review! Andre🚐 01:05, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

On the one hand, I disagree with Narutolovehinata5, as I think they could have done the review themselves just as much as I could. But, on the other hand, I admire someone who takes the neutrality principle to such an extreme, and you have to respect that even if you personally disagree with it. With that said, such a position can also have unintended consequences, such as leading to the timing out of this nom due to such high-minded principles. Viriditas (talk) 01:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Would it help if I review some DYKs that are in the backlog? Andre🚐 01:58, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

You're very much encouraged to do so, especially since any review can be used in the future once you are required to provide QPQs. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:19, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I did a few! Andre🚐 23:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• To clarify Viriditas's concern, the reason I asked for a new review is more out of check-and-balance reasons. Personally I have a preference for ALT1 (the straightforward hook), but others may disagree and think that the Trotsky angle is more interesting (and personally I do also find it interesting). Normally what I could have done is to approve both hooks and leave it to the promoter, but given how torn I am over the options I thought bringing in a third-party editor to give their own opinion would also help reach a proper consensus. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:55, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

• You’re not wrong; both hooks are good. Although I have only managed to vet ALT0. If you can vet ALT1, do the review, pass both, and let the approver decide on which hook to use. Viriditas (talk) 03:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Thank you both. I think we'd probably be able to verify ALT1 using the Ben Katchor book, The Dairy Restaurant, which I have in physical form. It's a surrealist trip, complete with lots of old menus and ads for dairy restaurants. I'll check and see if there's a succinct definition that we can use and what page that is on. Andre🚐 23:34, 12 October 2024 (UTC)
    • Or actually, the NYT review of the book should do it: The subjects of Mr. Katchor’s new book, “The Dairy Restaurant” (Schocken, $29.95), were community cornerstones: cheap, filling refuges that made it possible for Jewish immigrants in New York to eat out according to kosher laws, by keeping milk and meat strictly separated, with fish, eggs and vegetables as neutral go-betweens. Good enough? If not, I'll check the book, though I can't do it tonight. Andre🚐 23:37, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm really torn about what to write here. As a resident of the Bronx, I find ALT0 to be a wonderful hook. I had no idea Trotsky ever lived in the Bronx. The idea that I've literally walked down the block where he ate his meals just blows my mind. BTW, I found an ad for the Triangle Dairy Restaurant in the Daily Worker, https://www.marxists.org/history/usa/pubs/dailyworker/1929/1929-ny/v05-n344-NY-feb-08-1929-DW-LOC.pdf, page 3, rightmost column. And a photograph. But, WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE says avoid hooks that are primarily about an incident the subject is only tangentially related to which would seem to rule out the Trotsky hook. Still, it's such a great hook, I'd say WP:IAR and use it. RoySmith (talk) 23:19, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, very cool finds. "Comrades, Patronize The Triangle Dairy Restaurant." Love it. Andre🚐 23:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I added a fact to the article, from a cited NYT review of the book, which could make a good hook: ... that growth of Jewish dairy restaurants was aided by better commercial refrigeration and periodic "meat strikes" against the high cost of kosher butchers? ProfGray (talk) 04:52, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

It is an interesting tidbit, but it feels like it would be hard to properly explain within the space of a hook, the meat strikes I mean. The refrigeration thing is also interesting. I mean I guess it's a hook that pulls you in and says, what the heck do you mean, meat strikes? But then we don't really explain what they actually did or were in the article ... yet..., but it may be difficult to do so. I'll have to see what Katchor says about it in the full text. Andre🚐 05:29, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Andrevan, what about going after the quirky angle that emphasizes the unique pluralism of America and the distinct melting pot culture of New York? Something along the lines of "...that one of the few, last remaining Jewish dairy restaurants in New York's East Village is run by an Egyptian Muslim and Polish Catholic couple?" Of course, that would require updating the article.[1][2] Viriditas (talk) 20:25, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

That is a great fact, though it's more about B&H Dairy. While I did include it in that article, I omitted it from this one, though not intentionally. We could shove it into this article but I'm not sure that I like it better than the Trotsky hook or the Narutolovehinata5 special edition straightforward hook. Also, ProfGray figured out about the meat strikes, they were the 1902 kosher meat boycott. That could make that fact usable. Andre🚐 23:18, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, I found a place to sneak it into the article and it went in easier than I thought, so you have a Viriditas special edition pluralistic ALT4. Andre🚐 23:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on my reading of the above, I think this article is ready for a full review. Z1720 (talk) 22:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the article is ready for review. ProfGray made some improvements and I also added the info Viriditas suggested for ALT4. Please let me know if we should spell out ALT4 or if it's clear enough from the earlier conversation. Andre🚐 23:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Andrevan: There is a citation needed tag on this article.--Launchballer 16:48, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll remove that statement for now (cc @ProfGray) Andre🚐 16:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Alright. Long enough, new enough. QPQ unnecessary and Earwig has no valid complaints. The original and the ethnicity hook fail WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE and the meat strikes hook would require a link to 1902 kosher meat boycott, which I argue would distract the reader. I think this leaves only Naruto's straightforward hook, except I'm not seeing where exactly in the source it is - I'm sure I'm just missing it but @Andrevan: could I ask for a sentence in the source confirming this?--Launchballer 15:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

As an exact spot in a source for ALT4 (if have the right one), how about this quote from the NYT Moskin piece? The dairy restaurants "...were community cornerstones: cheap, filling refuges that made it possible for Jewish immigrants in New York to eat out according to kosher laws, by keeping milk and meat strictly separated, with fish, eggs and vegetables as neutral go-betweens." If so, then an edit or sentence in the first paragraph could work. ProfGray (talk) 17:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes,that was the quote we had for ALT1, Naruto's, which I can get a page num from Katchor if we don't like the NYT piece. Andre🚐 19:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I was asking for ALT1, which I can see now checks out.--Launchballer 01:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Andrevan and Launchballer: ALT0 is more interesting, but if we wanna go with ALT1, here's my crack at it:

• ALT1a: ... that Jewish dairy restaurants exist because kosher delis cannot serve dairy?

theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 01:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Works for me. Andre🚐 02:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm, but doesn't this assume that readers know that a kosher "deli" serves meat? If they already know that, then wouldn't the hook be less interesting? Don't mind me if I'm overthinking it!

Also, I'd change "sell" to "serve."ProfGray (talk) 02:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

This is what I'm saying, ALT0 is better. But I did change to serve :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 02:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Screw it. Narutolovehinata5, would you object if I promoted ALT0? I was raised Orthodox, but ALT0 is just better. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, while my preference remains ALT1 or ALT1a, I do think ALT0 is an eyecatching hook and might be more likely to get clicks, so go ahead. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned that hook technically violates WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE (it's really about Triangle Dairy), but if you all suggest IAR then I'm happy to accept the consensus.--Launchballer 10:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

References