Template:Did you know nominations/Jennifer Holloway
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:32, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
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Jennifer Holloway
[edit]... that Jennifer Holloway portrayed Grete in Schreker's Der ferne Klang at the Oper Frankfurt as a girl, a queen of the demimonde and an old woman, with a brilliant high register and still a warm timbre?Source: several critics agree on it
- Reviewed: Katie Bouman
- Comment: ... when the opera was performed 107 years after its premiere there - too long for the hook
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 16:27, 12 April 2019 (UTC).
- Not going to review, adding Alt hooks; Gerda, there certainly are broadly interesting facts about plenty of the articles you nominate, but you only write hooks that try to summarise things and are full of jargon. You may have noticed most DYK hooks do not do that. Perhaps you could veer into trivia more when writing hooks? Kingsif (talk) 18:12, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- ALT1:
... that Jennifer Holloway has mostly worked in Germany, despite starting her career in Georgia? - ALT2:
... that in 2012 Frédéric Chaslin wrote an entire song cycle specifically to be performed by Jennifer Holloway?
- No, I can't, trivia, I mean when it comes to people I admire. Many American singers make their career in Germany, there are simply more opera houses in Germany, - nothing personal about her. And a little song cycle is nothing compared to the demanding role in which she has to convince as a girl in first love and an old woman. How is that "jargon"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:00, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- Such hooks can be hard to read, especially to the uninitiated reader. A reader who would take a look at the original hook would find it difficult to understand, and instead of coming interested, might even be turned away. You should not overestimate people's familiarity with classical music, and bombarding them with jargon results in very unhooky hooks. Kingsif's proposed alternatives are much better simply because they can be appreciated even by people unfamiliar with terminology; my only concern is that ALT1's wording is ambiguous on whether or not the "Georgia" mentioned is the US state or the country (I know there's a link, but still). I don't find ALT2 as interesting since I'm not sure if general readers know who Chaslin is. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:55, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- What did you not understand in many American singers, - Georgia or wherever - make a career in Germany, nothing personal about her. Interesting that you say this about the very same opera Der ferne Klang you picked for Herlischka. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:52, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- Let's put it this way. You mentioned that it is not uncommon for American opera actors to be based in Germany. That is probably a known fact to those who closely follow opera. However, it is unlikely to be known by readers who are ignorant of opera (which I would presume is the majority of Wikipedia readers). Thus, such a hook would be more likely to appeal to the typical reader. In this case, the hook at most only requires knowledge that Germany and the state of Georgia exist. On the other hand, the original hook requires familiarity of several things that, to be frank, are not really well-known among general audiences (i.e. it assumes the reader is aware of Schreker, Der ferne Klang, opera, register, and timbre). ALT1 is accessible and can be understood by most people, ALT0 is niche to a fault, and I very much doubt that anyone outside of classical music circles would even find it intriguing, let alone appreciate. Like what I and Yoninah mentioned to you in the past, what may be considered typical or common to one group of people may be considered unusual to others. @Kingsif: Maybe you can also help explain the situation here? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:39, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
- I really sympathise with you, @Gerda Arendt:, wanting to show off how talented these people are; DYK is—literally in the name ("did you know..." is idiomatic in English for "here's a quirky little fact")—usually not for a person's greatest achievement or a brief on who they are. But you can sometimes write those into being interesting enough to get someone to click a link. As Naruto has explained, the wild majority of Wikipedia readers know basically nothing about opera, classical music, religion (and a decent portion of the American readers know little of Germany besides war, shameful as that may be). You also overload the DYK a bit; there's a word count you're not meeting, but that kind of makes it harder to understand because there's a lot of clauses that need reading back. Now, I agree that most people have no idea that American opera singers often work in Germany; however, if this is so pedestrian within opera that it is assumed, it shouldn't be the hook because that's almost like misleading people. I'm not sure how playing multiple roles in a show is less work than writing an entire operatic cycle, but if you say so. From your explanation of the original hook, though, I've rewritten it to:
- ALT3:
... that Jennifer Holloway once played both a young girl falling in love and an old woman in the same opera, and was critically applauded for doing so convincingly? - In this version, people only have to know that young and old are very different concepts. Removing all the specifics, putting it in a simple sentence structure and Simple English is all that's needed :) Kingsif (talk) 13:01, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
- Let's put it this way. You mentioned that it is not uncommon for American opera actors to be based in Germany. That is probably a known fact to those who closely follow opera. However, it is unlikely to be known by readers who are ignorant of opera (which I would presume is the majority of Wikipedia readers). Thus, such a hook would be more likely to appeal to the typical reader. In this case, the hook at most only requires knowledge that Germany and the state of Georgia exist. On the other hand, the original hook requires familiarity of several things that, to be frank, are not really well-known among general audiences (i.e. it assumes the reader is aware of Schreker, Der ferne Klang, opera, register, and timbre). ALT1 is accessible and can be understood by most people, ALT0 is niche to a fault, and I very much doubt that anyone outside of classical music circles would even find it intriguing, let alone appreciate. Like what I and Yoninah mentioned to you in the past, what may be considered typical or common to one group of people may be considered unusual to others. @Kingsif: Maybe you can also help explain the situation here? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:39, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
- What did you not understand in many American singers, - Georgia or wherever - make a career in Germany, nothing personal about her. Interesting that you say this about the very same opera Der ferne Klang you picked for Herlischka. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:52, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- Such hooks can be hard to read, especially to the uninitiated reader. A reader who would take a look at the original hook would find it difficult to understand, and instead of coming interested, might even be turned away. You should not overestimate people's familiarity with classical music, and bombarding them with jargon results in very unhooky hooks. Kingsif's proposed alternatives are much better simply because they can be appreciated even by people unfamiliar with terminology; my only concern is that ALT1's wording is ambiguous on whether or not the "Georgia" mentioned is the US state or the country (I know there's a link, but still). I don't find ALT2 as interesting since I'm not sure if general readers know who Chaslin is. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:55, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- ALT1:
So the article meets requirements, a QPQ has been done, no close paraphasing was found. ALT3 is mentioned in the text and AGF cited to a German source. Per the related discussion at WT:DYK, and because Gerda did not object to it there, I am approving ALT3 only. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:23, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
I didn't object because I hoped a reviewer would see the problems of ALT3. It doesn't even mention that she didn't play two characters - quite often in opera - but the same woman, also not that it's the lead female role - could be two little supporting roles. Also, I see no reason to make the short title of the opera an Easter egg. If needed translate to The Distant Sound. There's a short interview with her in the trailer, a good introduction. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:13, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
Returned from prep for new hook per nominator's wishes at WT:DYK. Other editors have pointed out that ALT3 is best suited for a general audience, but the nominator prefers earlier hooks. Reopening this nomination in the hopes that consensus can be reached. Yoninah (talk) 19:04, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- If people find the first proposal too complicated, here are subsets:
- ALT4:
... that Jennifer Holloway portrayed Grete in Schreker's Der ferne Klang (The Distant Sound) at three stages of her life, with a brilliant high register and still a warm timbre? - ALT5:
... that Jennifer Holloway portrayed Grete in Schreker's Der ferne Klang at the Oper Frankfurt as a young woman whose lover leaves her, as a prostitute, and as an old woman? - ... who finds her lover, only to have him die in her arms ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:34, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- In case of interest, the discussion was here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:38, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt I just got through reading your article, and the linking articles, to understand what you are trying to say. Please strike ALT4. Everything after the comma is POV. It's your English translation of the German quote, but it's not in quotes so it's POV. ALT5 is really close. Combine ALT5 with the "who finds her lover ..." line, and get it under 200 characters. I like that one. Edit Jennifer's article to make sure it has all the necessary parts of that quote in the body. — Maile (talk) 20:46, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- I honestly have to disagree with the decision to return this to prep. ALT3 was really eye-catchy and was a good summary of an interesting aspect of her career. I understand that DYK tends to respect nominator's wishes, but this is an instance where I believe it may not be in the best interest to do so. With that said, ALT5 has potential and I would not be opposed to a variant of it being approved, although Maile's suggestions for revisions can probably be taken. As a note "portrayed Grete in Shreker's Der ferne Kalng at the Frankfurt Opera as a..." sounds grammatically off, and if possible, I might suggest leaving out the Grete name to make it flow better, or to find an alternate wording that still shows that all three roles are Grete. We can also try proposing a new hook that combines ALT3 and ALT5, if that could reach compromise. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:08, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- I am sorry about the way you feel. - She doesn't fall in love (as ALT3 proclaimed) in the opera, it's plain wrong, however eye-catchy. Mimi in La bohème falls in love on stage, but not Grete. She is abandoned as soon as the curtain raises, - sorry that it's not eye-catchy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:12, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- Please feel free to reword ALT5, because - not a native speaker - I have trouble with grammar off's. - I used Grete, because it's much shorter than "the leading female role" - or what would you say? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:41, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- I honestly have to disagree with the decision to return this to prep. ALT3 was really eye-catchy and was a good summary of an interesting aspect of her career. I understand that DYK tends to respect nominator's wishes, but this is an instance where I believe it may not be in the best interest to do so. With that said, ALT5 has potential and I would not be opposed to a variant of it being approved, although Maile's suggestions for revisions can probably be taken. As a note "portrayed Grete in Shreker's Der ferne Kalng at the Frankfurt Opera as a..." sounds grammatically off, and if possible, I might suggest leaving out the Grete name to make it flow better, or to find an alternate wording that still shows that all three roles are Grete. We can also try proposing a new hook that combines ALT3 and ALT5, if that could reach compromise. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:08, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt I just got through reading your article, and the linking articles, to understand what you are trying to say. Please strike ALT4. Everything after the comma is POV. It's your English translation of the German quote, but it's not in quotes so it's POV. ALT5 is really close. Combine ALT5 with the "who finds her lover ..." line, and get it under 200 characters. I like that one. Edit Jennifer's article to make sure it has all the necessary parts of that quote in the body. — Maile (talk) 20:46, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Here's a try:
- ALT6: ... that American opera singer Jennifer Holloway portrayed Grete in Der ferne Klang as a young girl whose lover leaves her, as a courtesan, and as an old woman who holds the returned lover while he dies?
- Jmar67 (talk) 11:48, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- @Jmar67: I think it has potential, but right now it's too long (at 204 characters!). Secondly, the word "convincingly" was not mentioned or implied in the article, as the article only mentions technical terms and "sensitivity". The more I think about it, the more I believe that some variant of ALT3 might really be our best option here as it could explain the role while not being too wordy: the nominator however objected to the description of the role there, so it would have to be rewritten in any case. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:16, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- "Convincingly" was in the approved ALT3? I prefer ALT6 with the word deleted. Gerda? Jmar67 (talk) 14:43, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- It's fine. I miss Oper Frankfurt where the opera was premiered and now played after 107 years, but am ready to compromise, and just created the next article on an opera premiered there. Don't miss the little video, where she sings, plays and speaks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:26, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- How does "queen of the demimonde" translate to "prostitute"? Yoninah (talk) 17:55, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
- It was refuted as too long, and not been understood. The place where she is is a luxury brothel, - any better term? Sorry for being not into the scene ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:08, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- Adding: she is a prostitute in the street (Straßendirne) in the last act. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- The German article uses Kurtisane (courtesan) in the Act 2 discussion. Jmar67 (talk) 10:36, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- ... which - as our article informs us, is a euphemism for prostitute. What is La traviata. - This is similar, at least in act 2: a woman available to upper class men, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:56, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- The German article uses Kurtisane (courtesan) in the Act 2 discussion. Jmar67 (talk) 10:36, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- It's fine. I miss Oper Frankfurt where the opera was premiered and now played after 107 years, but am ready to compromise, and just created the next article on an opera premiered there. Don't miss the little video, where she sings, plays and speaks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:26, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- "Convincingly" was in the approved ALT3? I prefer ALT6 with the word deleted. Gerda? Jmar67 (talk) 14:43, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- @Jmar67: I think it has potential, but right now it's too long (at 204 characters!). Secondly, the word "convincingly" was not mentioned or implied in the article, as the article only mentions technical terms and "sensitivity". The more I think about it, the more I believe that some variant of ALT3 might really be our best option here as it could explain the role while not being too wordy: the nominator however objected to the description of the role there, so it would have to be rewritten in any case. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:16, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- I have updated ALT6 to use "courtesan". "Prostitute" would be more appropriate for the old woman. Jmar67 (talk) 11:30, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- ALT6 reads well; I tweaked it slightly for English grammar. Hook fact is cited in article to foreign-language sources. Rest of review per Narutolovehinata5. ALT6 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 22:08, 25 May 2019 (UTC)