Template:Did you know nominations/Jeff Dexter

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:31, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Close paraphrasing remains, and no action has been taken on Nikkimaria's most recent post even though over a week has elapsed. The article was recently tagged for close paraphrasing issues, and this nomination is closed

Jeff Dexter

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~~... that Jeff Dexter was banned from London's Lyceum for his obscene dancing of the newly-arrived Twist, then hired by them two weeks later as a dancer?~~

Reviewed: Korean melon
Comment: Hook tweaking and ALTs welcome

Created by Edwardx (talk), Philafrenzy (talk). Nominated by Edwardx (talk) at 23:42, 12 July 2014 (UTC).

I think we need quotes on "obscene":

ALT1 ... that London's Lyceum banned Jeff Dexter for his "obscene" dancing of the newly-arrived Twist, then hired him as a dancer two weeks later?

EEng (talk) 03:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

ALT1 flows better, so I'm striking my original hook. Edwardx (talk) 08:25, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think "obscene" needs quotes but I edited to attribute the remark directly to Dexter as his opinion. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:29, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, it wasn't his opinion, rather his statement of the opinion of Lyceum mgmt. I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) he says "my dancing was obscene" and while there's a lot of allowance to be made for shifting standards and so on, I don't think we want to be stating, as flat fact, that this LP (that's Living Person, not Long Playing record) did something obscene in his youth, nor that WP subscribes to particular standards of what is or was obscene which allows it to label things, in a factual way, as obscene. It's not a big deal, but do you see my point? EEng (talk) 21:06, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I changed it to "According to Dexter, the management thought the dance obscene." to make clear that it was his opinion that they thought it obscene. Philafrenzy (talk) 21:33, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I was only talking about the hook. EEng (talk) 22:37, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

How about:
ALT2 ... that London's Lyceum banned Jeff Dexter for what they thought was his "obscene" dancing of the newly-arrived Twist, then hired him as a dancer two weeks later?

I understand your concerns but I don't think there is any realistic chance of him being offended, not given that he was the source of the description in the first place. Philafrenzy (talk) 22:52, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

I think we're in violent agreement. The quotes in ALT1 telegraph that "obscene" was the Lyceum's opinion, so the additional verbiage of ALT2 isn't needed. But I leave it to you to decide. EEng (talk) 01:05, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Full review needed of article and hooks. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

This article is neutral and the hooks are fine, I have finished checking and i also finished my proofreading, So i think it's about time. -PAPAJECKLOY (hearthrob! kiss me! <3) (talk) 09:45, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm a little concerned at the closeness of some of the wording and structure here to the main source being used (the interview with Dexter), so I'm putting a temporary hold while I ask Nikkimaria to check the article for close paraphrasing. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:38, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I think some of the phrasing generally, not just from that source, is too close - compare for example "shop at the children's department at unfashionable high street stores like C&A and Woolworths and then customise the clothes at home" with "checked out the children's department at unfashionable stores such as C&A and Woolworths in the hope of finding something that might then be customised at home". Nikkimaria (talk) 16:19, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Changed to "they would buy from the children's department at unfashionable high street shops like Woolworths and C&A. The clothes would then be customised at home." Philafrenzy (talk) 19:56, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Philafrenzy, you've made a single change, while Nikkimaria said some of the phrasing generally, not just from that source, is too close. She says the close paraphrasing is a more general problem with the article, not just with the one example she gave or even with one of the sources, and that clearly includes the source I was concerned about or she would have excluded it. This is going to require more work throughout. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:51, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Changed that to "Neither could afford to buy expensive suits, so they would visit the children's department of high street shops like Woolworths and C&A and adapt the clothes themselves with help from friends." Hard to change it any more without losing detail or changing the meaning. "unfashionable" should still be in, in my opinion. Please suggest alternative wordings if you still find it too close. I have just reviewed the article and don't see anything else that looks too close to me, so I am afraid you will need to be more specific. I don't think it needs any sort of complete re-write if that is what you are suggesting. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:56, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Edwardx, as nominator as well as co-creator, I think it's incumbent on you to address this issue. Some of the phrasing from more than one source was identified by Nikkimaria, and I'd pointed out that some of the wording was too close to the main source, yet all that has been fixed is the one example from a different source entirely. Perhaps you'll be more able to spot things than Philafrenzy. The article cannot be passed in its present form. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

You can't spot something that isn't there. It's a fairly short article so I think it is reasonable to ask anyone who is worried to state exactly what they are worried about. Philafrenzy (talk) 22:11, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

It's true that you can't spot something that isn't there, but when two people are saying that something is there perhaps you might consider that you may be overlooking it? To give you another example, "the Twist had been taken up by the Arthur Murray School of Dancing and Dexter's dancing was caught on film and shown in cinemas as part of the Pathé newsreels" is quite similar to "it had been picked up by the Arthur Murray School of Dancing...and I got captured on film and it got shown around the cinemas on Pathé newsreels" - the simple omission of a clause from the source and some minor rewording is not sufficient paraphrasing. But it really is the job of the nominator(s) to go through and ensure that the article meets DYK's requirements; reviewers are not and should not be expected to identify issues line by line. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:04, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Changed that sentence to "...the Twist had been popularised by the Arthur Murray School of Dancing. Dexter's dancing was caught on film and included in the Pathé newsreels shown in cinemas." Philafrenzy (talk) 18:12, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

So that doesn't actually fix the problem, though - it's still closely paraphrased. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Changed to "the Twist had been popularised by the Arthur Murray School of Dancing. Dexter's dancing was filmed and included in the Pathé newsreels shown in cinemas." (Original: "it had been picked up by the Arthur Murray School of Dancing...and I got captured on film and it got shown around the cinemas on Pathé newsreels") To me that seems a reasonable degree of paraphrasing while still preserving the original meaning. If you still find it too close, please suggest an alternative form of words so that we can achieve consensus. Philafrenzy (talk) 15:15, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I will provide an alternative for this particular phrasing, but then you should go through the rest of the article and attempt to rephrase to the same or a greater extent. "Footage of Dexter performing the Twist appeared in Pathé newsreels" would be a potential paraphrase for the second part. You could also incorporate material from other sources to further distinguish it from the source, or if you felt it necessary you could use direct quotations to convey exactly what the source said. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:14, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing remains, and no action has been taken on Nikkimaria's most recent post even though over a week has elapsed. The article was recently tagged for close paraphrasing issues, and this nomination is closed. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:37, 19 September 2014 (UTC)