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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PumpkinSky talk 11:03, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Jan Sandström (composer)

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Created/expanded by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self nom at 00:03, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

  • Length, history and references verified. Daniel Case (talk) 20:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
  • The version expanded had one reference. As such, the article does not qualify for BLP 2x, which requires the already existing article to be entirely unsourced (see edit notice). Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:24, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
  • The one source which was given is the composer's website. Is that considered an independent source? But I am also working on his composition, may become a DYK article later today, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:27, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
  • As the rules state unsourced BLPs, sadly that is enough to derail this nomination. Sorry Gerda. By my count, you'd need to double the size of the current article to reach 5x. Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
  • This nom will be changed to one on the composition shortly, see above. - Do I understand you right: a BLP relying only on the website of the subject is considered sourced? Where do I find that "rule"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
  • You can see the edit notice above this nomination, where it says 2* "only applies to BLPs that were completely unreferenced before expansion" (emphasis mine). DYK rules state "Former unsourced BLPs...", but does not expand on it; it only suggests looking at Category:All unreferenced BLPs, which has fairly strict criteria. We could ask at WT:DYK if you prefer. Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

NEW:... that Jan Sandström composed the Motorbike Concerto for trombone and orchestra, and a setting of "Es ist ein Ros entsprungen" for choirs a cappella, one in four parts, singing Praetorius, the other in eight parts? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:42, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

  • The hook is overlong at 212 character—I'm puzzled as to why that wasn't an issue in the original review—and the formatting isn't correct in a couple of places: "Jan Sandström" should not be in italics, but "Es ist ein Ros entsprungen" should be in italics and without quotes (both were correctly done in the original hook). I was wondering, though, whether it would make more sense to submit an entirely new DYK since it's for a different article. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
  • I think it's better to keep the history, the fact and the date position. I have seen hymn titles both in "" and italic. To my knowledge the length of the article itself is not counted in the 200, but let's try to shorten anyway:
ALT1:... that Jan Sandström composed the Motorbike Concerto and a setting of Es ist ein Ros entsprungen for two choirs a cappella, one in four parts, singing Praetorius, the other in eight parts? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:47, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
It appears to me that the name of Jan Sandström should be in bold, the two titles should be italicized, and none of the other links should be bolded. The article Es ist ein Ros entsprungen (Sandström) does not qualify for DYK (not new and not a 5x expansion). --Orlady (talk) 16:43, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Now I am even more confused, because I created that article not even 24 hours ago! I was told not to bold the composer because he had a reference (to his own website, well, that was considered irrelevant). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:47, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I think Orlady is mistaken in this; the hymn article is new (December 18), and should therefore be eligible for DYK. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:00, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Indeed I was mistaken. I had checked Es ist ein Ros entsprungen (the link in the original hook) and not Es ist ein Ros entsprungen (Sandström). My sincerest apologies -- and thanks for explaining. --Orlady (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Back to my comment above, my reading of WP:DYKSG hook item C3, since it mentions only that additional article names beyond the first may be subtracted, is that the article name does count toward the 200. Hymn titles could, I suppose, be formatted with quotes or by the use of italics, but as the article intro renders the title in italics, the same formatting should be used in the hook. Nice cut to make the ALT1, though here's a minor edit for clarity (not so sure about the comma to colon change after "a cappella"):
  • Fine, strike misfomatted one (you can imagine, I was under some pressure when I wrote it, thinking I had my Christmas gift wrapped - and being told it wasn't acceptable). Very helpful for any help with punctuation which is different from German, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Article created within past five days, over 1500 characters, references fine. Someone else may need to verify ALT2 hook, since the edits from the ALT1 hook—which are all referenced in the article—were done by me to create ALT2. Both ALT1 and ALT2 are under 200 characters. The final sentence of the first paragraph in the "Composition" section needs a reference citation to back up its assertion (preference of German to Swedish), at which point the DYK should be ready for publication on December 24. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:13, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Thank you! I can't see differences between ALT1 and AL2 other than punctuation. If you see a problem with the one sentence, I will drop it. I still did not find any information about the premiere yet, just assume that it was in Sweden in Swedish because the Swedish publisher has the Swedish title first, but see in all the sources of performances and recordings that it appears in German, even for UK and US events (although the US publisher has the English title first). I just returned from singing it in rehearsal - wonderful! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:27, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
  • You're welcome. It sounds like a lovely piece; I've sung the Praetorius many times. I do see a problem with that sentence because of the "most performers prefer" statement, since it seems to indicate that people who perform it like it better in German than in Swedish, which I think would be very hard to establish. (Since it's only published in English and German in the US, it isn't so much preference as simple availability, added to the fact that more amateur choirs here are likely to have had to perform German pieces than Swedish, making the former language more accessible.) You might revise it based on the available recordings using the German title, but I should probably point out that the composer's "Works" page does list four separate recordings with the Swedish title. It's probably best to simply delete the sentence for the time being. Once that's done, I'll sign off this review.
I expect you're right that I'm being overfussy on my ALT2—I'm still relatively new to reviewing, and didn't want to violate the rules. If ALT1 is okay, then a change in punctuation (plus an added "and") should give an equally valid ALT2 without requiring another pair of eyes. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:14, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I removed that sentence which obviously was not clear anyway, because what surprised me is that US and UK singers "prefer" German over ENGLISH (not Swedish), if I look at their titles. I "opened" ALT1 again, then the one who takes it to prep can choose a punctuation, I prefer ALT2, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
  • The new article and hook passes. The one quibble I had with the article has been fixed (the sentence I thought would need a reference was removed), and I also—as the author does above—recommend ALT2 over ALT1. Speaking for myself (I'm a US singer), I prefer singing in the original language (in this case, German), because the words almost invariably fit better in the language the music was composed for. It's very rare that the syllabic accents and the important words fit the musical line as well in an English translation, no matter how careful it is. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:01, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
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