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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 17:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Jamie Beaton (entrepreneur)

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Created by MaxnaCarta (talk). Self-nominated at 23:50, 9 January 2023 (UTC).

  • Happy to review this one; I've always had an interest in this guy as a young Kiwi entrepreneur and "tall poppy", and was impressed by the article and how well-written/neutral it is. Article is new enough, long enough, well-cited and has no other eligibility problems. No issues from Earwig check. QPQ appears to not be required as your second DYK nomination (although please let me know if I've got that wrong!).
  • The hook is interesting and cited. I note I don't have access to the provided source for the hook as it requires a subscription. I can approve it on an AGF basis but wondered if you could provide me with the wording of the text supporting the hook? (I just want to check that it says this definitively, rather than being simply a claim by Beaton.)
  • Some minor comments:
    • Suggest just 'New Zealand' instead of 'New Zealand born'.
    • I think these sentences in the lead might fit better in the body of the article in the 'Early life' section: "The son of property managers, Beaton was born and raised in Auckland where for the first 7 years of his secondary education he attended Saint Kentigern School, then completing the final four years at King's College on an academic scholarship.[1] He was the valedictorian of King's College on graduation.[2]"
    • Per MOS:LEADREL, any significant information in the lead should usually be covered in the remainder of the article. I think details about his Harvard degree and that he completed it in only three years fits in this category.
    • I'm not sure the two images used in the article add much value or are significant enough to Beaton himself, and I would personally probably not include them, bearing in mind MOS:PERTINENCE.
  • Thanks again for your great work on this article, and hope all of the above makes sense. Only the request for the text supporting the hook is really critical to me approving the nomination. Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 04:09, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
    • Comment. Both the hook and the article have neutrality issues. The source used is a book review that repeats an assertion from Beaton. The world's top 25 universities according to whom? Beaton's business is university preparation; I don't think it's appropriate to repeat this claim in Wikipedia's own voice as it virtually amounts to free advertising. A further claim in the article about Beaton's degrees is totally unsourced. The article also includes several other promotional assertions about Crimson's business. ITBF (talk) 13:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
      • @ITBF: Thanks for your comments! I have added a source for the further claim in the article about his degrees, and done some other tweaks based on sources. As noted, I wanted to check the source wording for the hook before approving, but given that I took a different view on the article's neutrality, I'm going to suggest that a second reviewer be required once the issues I raised have been addressed.
      • @MaxnaCarta: apologies and hope the above is still helpful. I also note that it might be worth double-checking that the degrees listed in the infobox are covered by the sources in the article. Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 20:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
        • Have found another source for the hook quote, and suggest slight rewording:
ALT0a: ... that New Zealand entrepreneur Jamie Beaton applied to 25 of the top-ranking universities in the world and received an offer from each? Source: "He had actually applied to 25 of the world's highest-ranked universities, and all had said yes." BBC News
Appreciate this doesn't resolve all your concerns, ITBF. Chocmilk03 (talk) 03:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
@Chocmilk03: thanks for the work you did! I think the hook is perfectly appropriate. It is neutral. Not neutral would be "Jamie Beaton achieved the astounding feat of applying to wonderful universities and this makes him special". That he applied to 25 of the worlds top 25 universities is a fact that has been repeated by multiple reliable sources. Now that you sourced the BBC, a perennially reliable source, the hook is appropriate. Regarding "free advertising", I disagree with that premise. Advertising means describing or drawing attention to a product in a public medium in order to promote sales. "In order" is the key word here. Beaton has primarily become notable on the back of his company. Hence, a description of his business empire and what it offers is essential in writing a complete article about him. This may well have the side effect of drawing attention to his business, but the same could be said for an article on a phone that describes its products and features. I have not given undue weight to the business, remained neutral, and also mentioned the legal issues the business has faced. On balance, I see no violation of WP:NOT. @ITBF:, does this address your concerns? If you have any concerns, please could you identify a solution that would address them? I've been on a break for a wee while so haven't got round to applying. Hopefully this is now okay to proceed. Thanks all! MaxnaCarta (talk) 00:43, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Article is ready for a second reviewer for ALT0a. My assessment as first reviewer was that the article was appropriately neutral, and I remain of this view. I've just made some other amendments to the article (hope you don't mind MaxnaCarta!) to address my concerns above about the lead and because on review there were a few other points that I felt could be stated in a more neutral way (e.g. to say "Crimson states that it does X" instead of "Crimson does X"). Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 02:03, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
@Chocmilk03: thanks! Of course I don't mind lol. I do not own the article, and if it did, you're doing my work for me ^_^. Hopefully ITBF will be the seconder if they can. I'm still gonna work through your issues mentioned regardless of the nom, eventually to get it to GA standard. It's probably a way off that though and I'm prioritising another article for GA atm. Cheers for the feedback. All to do is wait now. I hope you are safe and nowhere near Auckland...MaxnaCarta (talk) 03:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I think some more attribution as to whom thinks these are the top 25 would be helpful in the hook. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 02:15, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron: The source itself says this. Not sure "according to the Australian" would help? Maybe we could change it to "25 of the world's top universities"? Because it is true that the top 25 varies depending on list. Thoughts? I'm open to any suggestions!. @Chocmilk03: any ideas from you? MaxnaCarta (talk) 01:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
...This is actually already the alternative hook already I guess.MaxnaCarta (talk) 01:04, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
  • New reviewer still needed. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:58, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
I actually think it's worth writing out the last version of the hook mentioned by Maxna Carta, which to me is slightly better than ALT0a, because it's not necessarily saying it's "THE" top 25:
  • ALT0b: ... that New Zealand entrepreneur Jamie Beaton applied to 25 of the world's top-ranking universities and received an offer from each?
  • ALT0c: ... that New Zealand entrepreneur Jamie Beaton applied to 25 top-ranking universities and received an offer from each?
Personally I just don't think it's that interesting (!!!). If you can get into 5 top-ranking universities, it's highly likely you could get into more of them, if you're bothered to apply. In the end, you can only go to 1. Oh...unless you're Jamie, in which case maybe you do find a way to Hermione Granger your way to multiple schools. Here's my proposal for a fresh hook:
@MaxnaCarta, Chocmilk03, and Theleekycauldron: Thoughts? Cielquiparle (talk) 14:37, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
@Cielquiparle: Thanks for taking a look at this one! My goal with ALT0a was to try to avoid saying they were "the top 25", so if that failed, definitely happy to revise per your ALT0b/c. But tbh I think your hook ALT1 is better anyway. Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 20:49, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
@Chocmilk03: Since I wrote ALT1, could you please give it a green tick? Please do check the article to make sure the fact is fully covered in the hook...I'm pretty sure now it does...but if further edits are needed, let us know. Cielquiparle (talk) 21:13, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
@Cielquiparle: I'd normally be happy to, and agree the hook meets the criteria. Part of the reason though I called for a second opinion was because of the comment by IBDF that they didn't think the article was neutral. That made me nervous! I've gone and had another look and I still stand by my previous opinion, but wondered if you would be willing to weigh in on that aspect of things, as a previously uninvolved editor? Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 00:59, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
@Chocmilk03: Thanks for your conscientiousness. The article to me is neutral. Where I actually agree 100% with ITBF is that the claim about applying to 25 top-ranked universities and getting an offer from each of them, stated as fact in wikivoice, seems inappropriate, even if BBC News and The Australian appear to accept it as fact. (I've now modified that sentence in the article to say, "According to Beaton...") Even though it is very likely true in this particular case, this is the kind of fact that is usually unverifiable for data protection and privacy reasons. (It's possible that Beaton has all 25 acceptance letters framed and has shown them to the journalists, but it's not mentioned in the BBC News article and I don't have access to The Australian...and that still wouldn't account for any rejection letter or waitlist letters that didn't get framed; you would still have to take him at his word.) In any case, it sounds like a (self-aggrandising) claim that anyone could make about themselves, plus it sounds slightly ridiculous (as I was saying before, who cares??? it's not saying that you got degrees from 25 schools...and many people get offers from lots of schools and usually choose to keep it private). For Beaton personally, it was a claim that helped him get funding for his business to begin with, and get customers, but we don't have to keep repeating it for him as such a remarkable achievement/fact that it deserves a DYK hook, etc....plus in real life, he has earned actual degrees since then and built a business. I have now struck all versions of ALT0, so there's no confusion; I have also created "Crimson Education" as a redirect pointing to Jamie Beaton, so we're making it explicit that this biographical article also covers a commercial entity, and is subject to the rules covering article pages about businesses and WP:PROMOTION. Of course, the article can continue to be improved, but at the moment it seems "good enough". This probably was more of an answer than you were expecting, but thanks to your cautiousness, we've now made things a little better, so I'm happy for you to proceed with the final approval part. Cielquiparle (talk) 10:20, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
@Cielquiparle: ALT1 approved; I've wikilinked the universities as I think that may be useful but happy if promotor wants to remove. Thanks heaps for your help; you've addressed the nervousness I had, and agree with your assessment of the 25 universities situation! Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 21:44, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
@Cielquiparle, Chocmilk03, and MaxnaCarta: Stanford University is not cited in our article and only appears as a wikilink in the infobox. After this is fixed I can promote. Bruxton (talk) 16:40, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
To speed things up, I added the information with a reference Bruxton (talk) 17:35, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
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