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Template:Did you know nominations/James McLemore

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

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James McLemore, Alabama Baptist Association, Caesar Blackwell, Antioch Baptist Church (Montgomery, Alabama)

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Created by Drmies (talk). Self nominated at 04:52, 3 July 2014 (UTC).

  • New enough at time of nomination, all except James McLemore long enough, all I don't see any mention of McLemore in citation #6, though the ABA is mentioned. No apparent paraphrasing policy issues, though I'm a bit concerned about the usage of FindAGrave.com and USGenWeb, among others. Hook is too long, QPQ pending. Cloudchased (talk) 18:20, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks Cloudchased. The hook is under 200 characters once you remove the "other" three article names (DYK supplementary rules). All articles should now be of appropriate length. Obviously I still need to review four articles, and I'm keeping the blank image: I hope to take pictures of the Blackwell grave tomorrow.

    As for these sources, sure, FindAGrave and USGenWeb aren't the greatest of sources, but they're not the worst either. Besides, the information derived from them is not a BLP violation, nor is it necessary to establish notability or overwhelmingly important facts. But if you like, we can have others look at it (Casliber, do you have a moment?) or I can post at RSN. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 02:29, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Yeah, this one I think we'd have trouble qualifying as a Reliable Source. Sorry. FindAGrave I think I can live with as it gets lot of official lists as well and has some vetting.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Hey; sorry, I won't be able to finish this review for the time being. Could someone else take a look, please? Cloudchased (talk) 01:09, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Drmies, I was about to call for a new reviewer, but a check of the hook found that it is indeed too long, with 225 characters even when excluding three of the four bold links (I count the longest of them and discard the rest, and spaces are always counted). Please propose a new hook, and I'll be happy to add the "review again" icon. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:56, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Dear BlueMoonset, I tweaked (and un-struckthrough) the hook: should be short enough. I still need to do one review, and I have the images, but still need to add one to the article and to this nomination. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Great, thanks, Drmies. Revised hook is short enough (192 characters by my count). Will wait for the remaining (fourth) QPQ. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:47, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • BlueMoonset, I added my last review. Let's drop the picture: the ones I took are not clear or pretty enough, really--I did not get a shot of Caesar Blackwell's gravestone. So let's get this one out of the way. Thanks for all your help, Drmies (talk) 14:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • New full review needed now that all four QPQs have been provided, the McLemore article has more than doubled in size, and other changes have been made. I've removed the placeholder for the picture. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:05, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Click for discussion of various items, now hidden to prevent page clutter.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Sorry to add to the complexity here, but there's something that really has to be cleared up. The hook makes it sound like preacher James McLemore bought slave Caesar Blackwell for the purpose of having Blackwell preach -- enslaved to preach! Now, if that's true that's one of the great DYKs of all time, and my first thought was to suggest breaking apart this multi-article nom into separate hooks so that this point could be brought out more clearly. However, after poking around the articles I'm confused. One of them seems to be saying that M bought B's freedom (not bought him as a slave), while another explicitly says it's not clear whether M bought B or freed him.
Either way there's at least one good hook in this, but the facts need to be cleared up in the articles first. EEng (talk) 18:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC) P.S. Apologies for talking casually about people being bought and sold -- it's so awful.
  • Drmies, I don't see that there have been any edits to address this apparent discrepancy. Are you planning to take care of this soon? BlueMoonset (talk) 04:12, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Sorry BlueMoonset, I had no idea anything was happening here. I think the confusion here is easily explained: EEng, first of all, it wasn't McLemore who bought Blackwell, it was the ABA--McLemore owned Blackwell's wife and child. Second, "bought or freed" (that's how I phrased it in the Blackwell article), that's a big difference but not an opposition: in both cases the slave was bought. If the slave was to be freed, they had to be bought first, and could then be manumitted. The unclarity in the sources is whether he was given his freedom by the ABA after that organization bought him. I doubt it, for various reasons, including that the in my opinion more reliable sources don't see Blackwell was freed: the story in the Montgomery Advertiser was written by some one, an intern maybe, who simply didn't really know what they were talking about.

    In other words, yes, EEng, he was bought to be a preacher, and presumably not a free preacher. Drmies (talk) 04:25, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I repeat that this deserves to be one of the great DYKs of all time, and we want the hook to be ironclad. With your permission I'd like to take a few days to review the sources and maybe find some new ones, to really nail this down. EEng (talk) 04:34, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I doubt that this can beat Bacon explosion, and that's not even in the top five anymore I think. As for the sources, good luck: I don't think there's much more to find. Drmies (talk) 04:44, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
It goes without saying that I wouldn't dream of toppling Bacon explosion from its place at the head of the DYK Pantheon of Honor. What do you take me for?

I think [1] may be worth a look -- Boothe and Burton both quote him but neither (I suspect) completely, and I always prefer to go back to the root sources. Also [2]. Believe it or not there may be microfilm of contemporary records discussing Caesar's purchase and/or preaching -- and what an image that would make for the article and DYK! This will require a trip to the library, if you can wait.

EEng (talk) 06:23, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
  • EEng, Slave Religion is sourced to Riley and Sellers. I've gotten the latter already and added it to the article: it offers yet another option. Riley, I'm waiting to get a hold of it. Drmies (talk) 18:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Was called away by an IRL emergency, largely resolved now, sorry. I can probably have full text of Riley Monday, if you can wait. It's no trouble, just wasn't going that way as soon as I normally would have. OTOH if you've already got it, let me know. EEng (talk) 18:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, at this point there's no chance of my even leaving the house for a few days. I can only say that if you can wait a bit longer I'll send you a pdf off the fiche, since this seems to interest you, and we'll have done about the best we can do source-wise. EEng (talk) 02:34, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

  • EEng, I got all I need out of Riley, I think. Can we send these along please? Thank you. Drmies (talk) 14:43, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
My apologies for being unable to follow up promptly. If this is an area of interest for you let me make it up to you in future by obtaining any obscure sources you might want (when my current IRL crisis has passed, of course). EEng (talk) 05:19, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
  • New reviewer required. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • All four were new enough, created June 29-30, are long enough, no evidence of close paraphrasing, neutral, well-sourced. Sources seem reliable for the facts given. Hook is not too long, sourced. QPQ done. It takes more than one source to get the hook – not a problem. Good to go. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:54, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
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