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Template:Did you know nominations/Jacob Marley

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 13:46, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

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Jacob Marley

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Marley's Ghost by John Leech, 1843
Marley's Ghost by John Leech, 1843
  • ... that the ghost of Jacob Marley was the first of four Spirits to visit Ebenezer Scrooge in a single evening in A Christmas Carol? Source: "You are strongly encouraged to quote the source text supporting each hook" (and [link] the source, or cite it briefly without using citation templates)

Created/expanded by Jack1956 (talk). Self-nominated at 18:43, 13 December 2020 (UTC).

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Sara Leland
  • Perhaps hold the article for 25 December?  :*
  • This is a drive-by comment, but as the hook is about a fictional plot point and DYK rules require that hooks about fiction involve the real world in some way, a new hook will need to be proposed. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:08, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
I have written another hook (ALT1) that includes the author's name and year of publication which I hope is acceptable in rooting it in the real world. Jack1956 (talk) 20:12, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
I've suggested an ALT2 hook. MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:05, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
I am perfectly happy with ALT2 as a hook. Jack1956 (talk) 22:17, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
I like ALT2. I should mention, however, that I was Jacob Marley in a play when I was a child, so I may perhaps have a conflict of interest. 2604:2000:E010:1100:7462:CB4D:B27A:20DE (talk) 09:21, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

  • I added a tight crop of the image. But I don't think ALT2 is the best lead hook for a Christmas appearance. I looked at the article to try to find a better hook, but there isn't a lot of description about the development of the character. All the possible inspirations are just speculation. Yoninah (talk) 12:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
As I wrote it for the front page for Christmas Day I guess we must revert to ALT1 for the hook? Jack1956 (talk) 20:39, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Given that ALT1 is, in the end, still plot-related, it doesn't sound suitable. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:59, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Agreed. Admittedly the 'real world' part of ALT2 is not in itself Christmassy, but there isn't anything in the article that would support such a hook. This still works as a Christmas DYK, though (either for Christmas Eve or Christmas Day) simply because of the book's title. MichaelMaggs (talk) 12:25, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
  • @MichaelMaggs: sorry, but per Rule C6, it isn't enough for the book's title to be real. Something else in the hook, besides the plot, has to relate to the real world.. Yoninah (talk) 00:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Uh, I was discussing ALT2. MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:23, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't know where else to go with this DYK nomination and guess I will have to withdraw it. Jack1956 (talk) 20:06, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Jack1956, that's much better. But you have a whole Notable portrayals section that is unsourced. Yoninah (talk) 20:17, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Sources added to notable portrayal list. Jack1956 (talk) 22:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
  • @Jack1956: thank you. But you missed a few. I think we're ready for a review. @Kingsif: do you have time to handle this? I'd like to suggest smoother wording for the image slot on Christmas Eve:
  • ALT3a: ... that after witnessing the exploitation of poor children, Charles Dickens wrote A Christmas Carol and used the ghost of Jacob Marley (illustrated) as a mouthpiece for his own views on social responsibility? Yoninah (talk) 23:46, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
  • On second thought, your alt is better, though I would remove the date (which is in the caption), remove the run-on blue linking for an author that everyone knows. and correct the spelling:
  • ALT3b: ... that after a visit to a ragged school, Charles Dickens wrote A Christmas Carol in which he uses the ghost of Jacob Marley (illustrated) as a mouthpiece for his own views on social responsibility? Yoninah (talk) 23:50, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
ALT3b sounds good. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:02, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Article created from redirect on 13 December, long enough, detailed and interesting, though still missing a few refs in popular culture and notable portrayals. I also worry about OR: a sentence discussing if Scrooge and Marley were really friends based on textual analysis is only sourced to the novella and so the textual analysis and conclusion do not appear to come from an RS; there is actually a lot only sourced to the novella, likely crossing the OR line a lot, if inadvertently. Another issue, if we're really sticking to MOS, is the lead. It's far too long and contains original comments not present in the article body, as well as a lengthy quote block. Hooks: Alt0 and alt1 are ruled out for being PLOT. I like the linguistic intrigue of Alt2, though it may need to be made clear that the phrase was originally in an older work (and thus spelled in an older form of English), as it currently suggests Dickens wrote it like that. Alt3b is good and interesting, offline sources - one of these (Sutherland, British Library) is displaying a harv ref error, so that should be fixed, too. Kingsif (talk) 09:09, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Quite a bit of work has been done to sort out the points mentioned above; I hope enough has been done. I will be away from my pc for two weeks as from 18 December and won't be able to do any more on the article. I would be grateful for any help from other editors. Thanks. Jack1956 (talk) 20:15, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
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