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Template:Did you know nominations/Irénée Berge

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 22:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

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Irénée Berge

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Created by Kosboot (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 19:36, 4 March 2014 (UTC).

  • Comments First, it's too short; the DYK tool says 1468 characters. Second, one of the claims in the hook isn't cited to an inline source (the one about the silent film music). Finally, I think the hook is good, but is a little hard to understand. Thus proposing an alternative below. This is on a first, quick check. I'll be back later with more detailed comments if necessary.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 14:58, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Comments We were afraid it was too long. Thank you Alf.laylah.wa.laylah for the suggestion. How does one make your proposal the main one - use strikethroughs to the original? -- kosboot (talk) 15:48, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
  • OK, is it clear that I meant that the article itself is too short? It must be 1500 characters of readable prose, so maybe expand on something a little?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:51, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't realize what you meant. It is extremely difficult finding information on this person. I'll try to dig up a few more things. -- kosboot (talk) 16:05, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Good to go with ALT1. It's long enough at 2265 characters of readable prose. The hook is short enough, hooky enough, and cited to an inline source in the article. The article is new, no QPQ necessary as it was nominated by someone other than the author. I've had to assume good faith for the offline sources, but I don't see any signs of copyright violations or close paraphrasing. The article is neutrally and well-written, and that, as they say, is that.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 18:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Note: I changed the icon to a question mark because I didn't realize I couldn't approve it if I'd suggested an ALT hook. Thus this needs input from a second reviewer for at least that much.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 18:50, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Reviewer needed to check ALT1 hook, which was proposed by previous reviewer. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:10, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
In regards to composing a Texas state song, here is the article statement and sourcing In 1915 he wrote the song "Blue Bonnet" (with lyricist George Sloan Bryan) which was adopted as the Texas state song until 1929. Irénée Berge, G.S. Bryan, Blue Bonnet: The State Song of Texas (New York: G. Schirmer, 1915). The Handbook of Texas online does not support that, and in fact neither Irénée Berge nor George Sloan Bryan are found in the handbook. However, "Bluebonnets" (the flower is one word, not two) is the official state flower song, adopted in 1933, lyricist Julia D. Booth, music Lora C. Crockett.Handbook of Texas online, Texas Parks and Wildlife Magazine, Texas Highways. The official Texas state song "Texas Our Texas" was written in 1924 and adopted in 1929, music William J. Marsh, lyrics Marsh and Gladys Yoakum Wright.Handbook of Texas online. Whatever may (or may not) have existed as a state song prior to 1929 is not mentioned in the Handbook of Texas, nor is there any mention in the state's official search website. www.Texas.gov. However, as indicated by the sources I've listed here, an "official" state song would have been the result of a recorded designation by the state legislature. — Maile (talk) 12:09, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment I think I figured out what may have happened. On December 27 1914 the Dallas Morning News ran a squib stating that some Dallas Women's Club was extending the deadline for their state song contest and that the entries were expected to be about the state flower. On May 8, 1915 the same paper ran another teeny article stating that the club had received 24 songs and would announce a winner the next day. Then the issue drops out of the database with no mention of who won the contest. The whole issue disappears until June 5, 1929, when a Laredo paper announces that "Texas, My Texas" had been named the state song by the legislature and that this was "the first time in history" that Texas had had an official state song. this search lends some credence to the claim that Berge and Bryan's song won it, but it's evidently not what's meant in the modern sense of a state song. My guess is that Berge's song won the contest but for some reason this was not reported in the paper. I will also mention that on April 2, 1910, the Dallas Morning News also reported that Texas had had a state song since 1901, and the song they mention was also chosen in a contest held by a women's club. However, on December 1, 1912, the Dallas Morning News flat out stated that Texas did not have a state song. My feeling is that "state song" had a broader meaning back in the day. I can upload PDFs of all these sources if anyone cares, since they're all long out of copyright. It won't help for this article, though, as Berge isn't mentioned in them.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 14:53, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I was trying to do some research on that, also. It occurred to me that the songwriters might have copyrighted the song under that exact title, either in hopes of it being adopted, or just because whatever. It makes no sense to me that the state legislature of Texas would adopt an official state song written by a non-Texan living in New Jersey. They would have honored their own. I found nothing more than indicated above. Texas Our Texas also won civilian contests, and admiration from non-Texan John Phillip Sousa, but it also went through a vetting process headed by Governor Pat Morris Neff, and extended past his administration before the legislature adopted it. The article needs to be reworded, since that song obviously was never the official state song. Maybe there could be a different hook not mentioning Texas.— Maile (talk) 15:21, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
ALT2: ... that Irénée Berge composed the opera Corsica, a song on the state flower of Texas, and silent film music? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:59, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
  • As I said, the article needs to be corrected - nothing supports the claim the song was the state song of Texas. Also, while Alf.laylah.wa.laylah has pulled up some mentions of a state song contest, he doesn't prove Berge even entered that one, much less won it. He assumes with link that really only says the song was copyrighted by Berge under that chosen name.The copyright name means nothing except the copyright filer's preference. It is not copyrighted by the State of Texas. Without the lyrics, we don't even know what the song is about, except to assume it mentions a flower and mentions Texas - but we can't verify that . I don't think this particular nomination should even mention Texas in the hook that goes on the main page, unless it can be verified, and I would request online verification for this one. — Maile (talk) 18:42, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
  • It is supported by an offline source that I don't know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:20, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
  • OK, I found the snippet view Amherst thing in a full version online at the Archive here. I can't find the proper page in the page-streaming version, which is unfortunate, but in the text version available here we learn that George S. Bryan has written the lyric "Blue-bonnet," which was set to music by M. Irene Berge, Massenet's favorite pupil, and won a prize in open competition for a state song for Texas. This has been adopted by Texas and is published by (?. Schirmer, Inc., for solo voice and for mens, women's, and mixed choruses. I still don't know what to make of it, since it uses the indefinite article, but it does seem to support some claim regarding the matter. This can be verified by searching in the text file on " Berge ".— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 05:44, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Alf.laylah.wa.laylah Gerda Arendt I don't know what to make of this either. I am leaning towards accepting Gerda's ALT 2, because she just refers to it as a song about the state flower. I copy edited the article to take out the claim it was the state song. Unless someone can come up with verification from the State of Texas on the legislation was passed on this, we can't verify it was the state song. But I also believe this review has gotten too long. So, I'm bowing out at this point and leaving the final tick to others. — Maile (talk) 11:30, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
  • If ALT2 is to be used, the article itself must include the fact that the bluebonnet is the Texas state flower (with sourcing), as all hook facts must be in the article, and this one is not. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
ALT3: ... that Irénée Berge composed the opera Corsica and silent film music? -- kosboot (talk) 04:06, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
  • This article now conforms to the DYK criteria of newness and length. Going with ALT3 which is referenced to offline sources and accepted in good faith. I have struck the other hooks. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:09, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
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