Template:Did you know nominations/Hevenu shalom aleichem
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet talk 02:50, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
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Hevenu shalom aleichem
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Daliah Lavi in 1966
- ... that "Hevenu shalom aleichem", adapted to English as "May there be peace in the world", has been sung at Jewish weddings and German events for peace? Source: several
- ALT1: ... that the Israeli singer Daliah Lavi (pictured) recorded the Hebrew song "Hevenu shalom aleichem" ("May there be peace in the world") in Germany in 1974? Source: several
- Reviewed: Echte Wagner Margarine
- Comment: El C had not much time yet to add things from an Israeli point of view. He may come up with a better hook. - I understand that Lavi's image is not directly related to the song but it shows the spirit of that time and its peace movements quite well.
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk) and El C (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 15:02, 22 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Hevenu shalom aleichem; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
Article meets DYK requirements and a QPQ has been provided. No close paraphrasing has been found. I prefer the first hook as being more interesting to a broad audience than the ALT. That hook is cited inline in the source and verified. However, only the "has been sung at Jewish weddings" part of the hook is directly mentioned in the article: the "German events for peace" part is not directly stated in the article, only that it is a song about peace. I could also suggest an additional alternative hook about it being sung by Ukranian refugees as I think that's a pretty good angle for a hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:09, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you. Going to work on more refs for those events. I saw an article by Bild on 10000 in Dresden in Spring 2022 for Ukraine, but when I wanted to quote from it, I had exceeded my limit of free access. Can you perhaps see it? - Also: I wanted to give El C a chance to supply more on Israeli history and events first. - Also, some women who just died are higher on my priority list. I feel I have to write an FA now if I want to get achievements to the Main page, - quite a mountain I must say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt and Narutolovehinata5: Looking at the sources, I'm not convinced this article is notable? Delighted to learn of it, I'd never heard it, but a lot of the significant coverage seems to come from non-editorial and non-reputable sourcing. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:37, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- I am still waiting for El C, and references to the specific meaning it has in Israel. For the waiting time, enjoy a great performance. Or Walter Arlen. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:05, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- El C now contributed many uses in Israel, and I'd like to know which items seems most promising, possibly to replace "Jewish weddings" which many will know already, Narutolovehinata5, theleekycauldron. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:50, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
- El_C, without having the patience to read through the Hebrew in the new refs, it seems like the most you were able to squeeze out of them was short-but-impactful mentions. Do any of them go into detail about the piece or otherwise provide sigcov? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:24, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- No. El_C 15:01, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- tlc, this is not a piece, just a text of 3 words, and a melody of 8 measures, but with impact comparable to La Marseillaise. A song in Hebrew listed in multiple German song books (in Hebrew), a peace song chosen as one of six by German authorities, the signature melody of El Al, + the other uses, - isn't that enough? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:20, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: Strictly speaking: not really, no. Per WP:NSONGS, songs are
probably notable if they have been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works
. Can you tell me which sources in the article (or otherwise) meet that standard? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:17, 29 September 2023 (UTC)- as you say "strictly speaking". We have many articles about songs that are known in a small part of the world, used by a few people. I wrote some of them, such as Segne dieses Kind. "Hevenu shalom aleichem", however, is known by many, as the article says. Counting: "Segne dieses Kind" is part of 21 German songbooks. Hevenu shalom aleichen is part of 54 German songbooks, not counting English, French, you name it. Widely published, arranged by many, played by orchestras, ... - all that establishes notability for me. The guideline is meant - I think - to avoid articles about someone's song promoted by that someone. Not the case here. Can we ignore the "rule", IAR? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: If that's your request, the community should have the opportunity to make that call at the proper venue – I would suggest AfD. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:24, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- I thought you would understand that a song published in hundreds of books, frequently recorded, is notable, even if nobody specifically wrote about the song because it's a traditional, with no notable author or composer known. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:57, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- You are being too naive, Gerda. Do you not understand what's happening here? You may have just given theleekycauldron their win (deletion of this page) by even mentioning IAR, and as plea no less (!). Earnest but foolish. Anyway, suggest you cease from engaging this AfD-lite. Sorry I was too busy today to advise you on that. So let theleekycauldron file their AfD; don't get worn out here. El_C 08:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- I admit being naive. I should have used WP:COMMONSENSE - just found out it's a redirect. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- You are being too naive, Gerda. Do you not understand what's happening here? You may have just given theleekycauldron their win (deletion of this page) by even mentioning IAR, and as plea no less (!). Earnest but foolish. Anyway, suggest you cease from engaging this AfD-lite. Sorry I was too busy today to advise you on that. So let theleekycauldron file their AfD; don't get worn out here. El_C 08:08, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- I thought you would understand that a song published in hundreds of books, frequently recorded, is notable, even if nobody specifically wrote about the song because it's a traditional, with no notable author or composer known. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:57, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: If that's your request, the community should have the opportunity to make that call at the proper venue – I would suggest AfD. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:24, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- as you say "strictly speaking". We have many articles about songs that are known in a small part of the world, used by a few people. I wrote some of them, such as Segne dieses Kind. "Hevenu shalom aleichem", however, is known by many, as the article says. Counting: "Segne dieses Kind" is part of 21 German songbooks. Hevenu shalom aleichen is part of 54 German songbooks, not counting English, French, you name it. Widely published, arranged by many, played by orchestras, ... - all that establishes notability for me. The guideline is meant - I think - to avoid articles about someone's song promoted by that someone. Not the case here. Can we ignore the "rule", IAR? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: Strictly speaking: not really, no. Per WP:NSONGS, songs are
- El_C, without having the patience to read through the Hebrew in the new refs, it seems like the most you were able to squeeze out of them was short-but-impactful mentions. Do any of them go into detail about the piece or otherwise provide sigcov? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:24, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Theleekycauldron This has been stuck for a while so I would suggest that the article be brought to AFD to address any notability concerns. If the article is kept, the nomination/review can resume and any hook/article issues can be worked on. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- Do you have doubts that a Hebrew song that appears in 54 German song books is notable? Where did common sense go? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- I am not the editor who had notability concerns, it was Theleekycauldron. I'm just here to review the nomination and am waiting for the notability issue to be resolved before I finish the review. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- I know all that, but just wanted to know if you have doubts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not an expert on how coverage for these songs works so I am remaining neutral on the matter. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- I know all that, but just wanted to know if you have doubts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- I am not the editor who had notability concerns, it was Theleekycauldron. I'm just here to review the nomination and am waiting for the notability issue to be resolved before I finish the review. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, punted to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hevenu shalom aleichem – we'll reconvene back here after the week :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:14, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, closed as keep. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, but the hook issues raised above remain unaddressed. The call for a hook about the Ukrainian refugees angle also remains open. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:04, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5 I believe if you look at citations 24 and 25 in the article that the hook fact is cited even if Gerda failed to provide the sources here in this discussion. Best.4meter4 (talk) 14:09, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- @4meter4: I was referring more to the "German events for peace" part. The article mentions (without a footnote) it's been used for "peace demonstrations" but without specifying if it was in Germany specifically, and the events that are described in the article are not explicitly referred to in the article as "German events for peace" even if they are in practice. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:02, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: I am aware. I also was referring to the sources verifying "German events for peace" in my earlier comment. Did you even look at references 24 and 25? One of them literally is translated "Germany sings for hope and peace" in the article title, and both are describing events for peace in Germany in which the song was used. Frankly, I think you are being a bit pedantic here. The hook fact is verifiable to those two references.4meter4 (talk) 05:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, I mean that the actual phrasing that the song was used for German events for peace is only indirectly inferred in the article but is not directly stated. Once that is resolved, and/or a citation is added to the sentence I was talking about, that particular issue will be resolved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:04, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Firstly - having been away for some days - I want to express thanks to all who helped to rescue the article, by not only finding substantial sources but also adding them to the article, making it much more interesting! I added 4meter4 to contributors. - The fact of German peace events is - with sources - in the body of the article. In the summary in the lead, I wrote "German" only to hint at more than local events. There may be others in the world that I just don't know. Help with wording, perhaps even finding a better hook, welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:12, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, I mean that the actual phrasing that the song was used for German events for peace is only indirectly inferred in the article but is not directly stated. Once that is resolved, and/or a citation is added to the sentence I was talking about, that particular issue will be resolved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:04, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: I am aware. I also was referring to the sources verifying "German events for peace" in my earlier comment. Did you even look at references 24 and 25? One of them literally is translated "Germany sings for hope and peace" in the article title, and both are describing events for peace in Germany in which the song was used. Frankly, I think you are being a bit pedantic here. The hook fact is verifiable to those two references.4meter4 (talk) 05:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- @4meter4: I was referring more to the "German events for peace" part. The article mentions (without a footnote) it's been used for "peace demonstrations" but without specifying if it was in Germany specifically, and the events that are described in the article are not explicitly referred to in the article as "German events for peace" even if they are in practice. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:02, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5 I believe if you look at citations 24 and 25 in the article that the hook fact is cited even if Gerda failed to provide the sources here in this discussion. Best.4meter4 (talk) 14:09, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, but the hook issues raised above remain unaddressed. The call for a hook about the Ukrainian refugees angle also remains open. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:04, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Alt2: ... that after signing the Camp David Accords in 1978, Prime Minister Menachem Begin gave a speech which concluded with a statement of desire to sing "Hevenu shalom aleichem" with the people of Israel? Source: Stuart E. Eizenstat (2018). President Carter: The White House Years. St. Martin's Publishing Group. p. 524. ISBN 9781250104557. Would this alternative hook be of interest?4meter4 (talk) 16:34, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- I like the idea, but would prefer if word "peace" would appear in a hook, or do we trust that shalom is internationally understood. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:39, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt Ok. how about alt2a: ...that after signing the Camp David Accords in 1978, Prime Minister Menachem Begin concluded a speech with a statement of desire to sing the peace song "Hevenu shalom aleichem" with the Israeli people? It is exactly 199 characters. Took me a bit to work in the requested language within the hook length criteria. Best.4meter4 (talk) 18:57, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with some variant of ALT2 but it's on the long side even at 199 characters. Maybe something slightly shorter? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:58, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Seriously? We have a 200 character count policy for a reason. If we are going to start creating extra hoops beyond our guidelines I'm done with this DYK. The earlier Alt2 hook was shorter if a shorter hook is desirable. Either way both hooks are within policy and are interesting. There's not a valid reason here to not give a DYK tick of approval to both of these hooks.4meter4 (talk) 00:53, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- The old rules used to say that hooks slightly shorter than 200 characters could be declined under editor discretion, not sure why the current version doesn't say that anymore. That was more of what I was referring to. I didn't suggest that either hook is not interesting: in fact, I think ALT2's hook, I think it could just be shortened slightly to make it not too long. Probably could be cut down if possible to around 190 characters or less. But if that's really not possible then I'm fine with ALT2 as-is. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:07, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- 4meter4, perhaps you should seriously look for a different reviewer. Or naruto, perhaps you could seriously not block interesting content from the Main page just because you personally find it too long. Which item would you regard as not good enough to be made known? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:14, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- It was a thing under the old rules, not sure why it isn't included in the current version. In any case, the "tighter" I had in mind was something like this:
- ALT2B: ... that after signing the Camp David Accords in 1978, Prime Minister Menachem Begin ended a speech with a desire to sing the peace song "Hevenu shalom aleichem" with the people of Israel?
- It basically says the same thing, just with slightly fewer words. It would be even shorter if "the peace song" was deleted from the hook, but given the desire to keep "peace" in the hook I left it in. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:14, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- That works for me, thank you. I believe you may even approve it as it is just a rewording. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you. I'll just wait for 4meter4's response and I'm approving ALT2B. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Alt2B works for me.4meter4 (talk) 17:13, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Thank you. ALT2B is approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Alt2B works for me.4meter4 (talk) 17:13, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you. I'll just wait for 4meter4's response and I'm approving ALT2B. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- That works for me, thank you. I believe you may even approve it as it is just a rewording. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- It was a thing under the old rules, not sure why it isn't included in the current version. In any case, the "tighter" I had in mind was something like this:
- Seriously? We have a 200 character count policy for a reason. If we are going to start creating extra hoops beyond our guidelines I'm done with this DYK. The earlier Alt2 hook was shorter if a shorter hook is desirable. Either way both hooks are within policy and are interesting. There's not a valid reason here to not give a DYK tick of approval to both of these hooks.4meter4 (talk) 00:53, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'd be fine with some variant of ALT2 but it's on the long side even at 199 characters. Maybe something slightly shorter? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:58, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt Ok. how about alt2a: ...that after signing the Camp David Accords in 1978, Prime Minister Menachem Begin concluded a speech with a statement of desire to sing the peace song "Hevenu shalom aleichem" with the Israeli people? It is exactly 199 characters. Took me a bit to work in the requested language within the hook length criteria. Best.4meter4 (talk) 18:57, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
