Template:Did you know nominations/Hertzoggie

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Hertzoggie

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Hertzoggies in a South African bakery

... that supporters of the early-twentieth century South African politician J. B. M. Hertzog invented the Hertzoggie, a jam filled tartlet with a baked coconut meringue topping, prompting supporters of his political rival, Jan Smuts, to invent their own confectionery called a Jan Smuts Cookie.

Created/expanded by Discott (talk). Self-nominated at 14:04, 26 July 2016 (UTC).

Hook should be less than 200 characters. Yoninah (talk) 23:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Yoninah, thanks for reviewing this. I was worried that might be the case as I have been struggling to think of a way to say what is said above in a more concise sentence. I will take another crack at it and see if I can make it shorter. Any suggestions would be very welcome.Discott (talk) 07:27, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

ALT1: ... that while supporters of South African politician J. B. M. Hertzog invented the Hertzoggie confection (pictured), supporters of Hertzog's rival created the Jan Smuts cookie? Yoninah (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Yoninah, that is great. Much better than the original.Discott (talk) 09:28, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Ready for full review. Yoninah (talk) 18:26, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

The article is new enough and long enough, ALT1 is interesting and neutral, and there are no copyvios detected. The only issue that I see: The hook is supported by two references that I don't think are reliable sources. One looks to be a general food blog, and the other is a blog administered by a bed and breakfast. If there is a better source, I think we will be able to proceed. Great work on ALT1. EricEnfermero (Talk) 20:02, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Would this reference<ref name="ExtendedInterview">{{cite AV media | url=https://soundcloud.com/politicalfoods/hertzoggies-extended | title=Hertzoggies: Extended Interview with Sarah Emily Duff | publisher=Political Foods | date=28 February 2016 | people=Sarah Emily Duff | medium=Podcast | location=12:08}}</ref> from an interview conducted with ~~Prof~~ Dr Sarah Emily Duff, senior researcher at the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, be enough? Discott (talk) 21:30, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't really doubt the credentials of this researcher, but I don't think there's much difference reliability-wise between a blog and this podcast on Soundcloud. I thought surely that we could source this to something that comes from an entity with editorial oversight - a magazine, book, newspaper. I ran a Google Books search and a Google News Archive search but couldn't come up with anything that would really support the hook. I'm only an occasional DYK participant, so I am fine if someone feels like I'm using too high of a standard to source this relatively non-contentious hook. EricEnfermero (Talk) 02:29, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree with EricEnfermero; most of the sources for this article, aside from the chapter from Imagining the City, are food blogs and cookbooks. @Discott: perhaps you could find reliable sources in some of the foreign-language refs available on Google? Yoninah (talk) 15:26, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

There are some references mentioned at the end of Duff's post on Hertzoggies that meet WP:RS such as "Gabeba Baderoon, Regarding Muslims: From Slavery to Post-Apartheid (Johannesburg: Wits University Press, 2014)." I am still trying to see if I can get a copy of the book to cooberate the information (or any of the other two books mentioned) but that might take a while. Alternatively we could focus on the Cape-Malay origin story of the Hertzoggie and their use of multi-coloured icing it illustrate Hertzog's hipocracy? That one is reliably sourced on the article using a source from the HSRC. Discott (talk) 10:14, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

@Discott: we're not just talking about finding an RS for DYK. With only one or two reliable sources, the whole page risks deletion. Yoninah (talk) 10:21, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

@Yoninah: thanks for the clarification. I will add a third such reference (the ref from the HSRC and TimesLive (one of South Africa's largest newspapers) seem to meet RS status) from Baderoom. That should increase the all important RS number to 3. Some of other sources I accept fall somewhere in the grey area of what constitutes RS or fall outside of it. As mentioned before I should be able to dig up a few additional RSs from printed sources in time. On a side note worth mentioning, whilst I accept the necessity for RS I am also a bit sceptical of it especially when it comes to articles covering issues from developing countries where sources, especially digital ones, are hard to come by thereby leading to a type of Systemic bias in the rang of articles covered on Wikipedia. Especially when it comes to food articles which tend to be hard to research for anyway due to the subject's nature not necessarily lending its self to being covered by what is traditionally considered RS type sources.-Discott (talk) 14:11, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

EricEnfermero, Yoninah, does this now have enough reliable sourcing to proceed? If so, I realize that Yoninah, as the author or ALT1, cannot review further; EricEnfermero, can you continue? If not, I'll call for a new reviewer. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:22, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

I think this nomination is fine with the addition of the Times Live source for the hook, as this was the only outstanding issue from my previous review. I apologize for losing track of this review for so long, but I think we are good to go here. EricEnfermero (Talk) 17:56, 28 August 2016 (UTC)