Template:Did you know nominations/Herman Pines

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 15:00, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Herman Pines

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... that after leaving his Polish home because of anti-semitism, Herman Pines helped develop high-octane aviation fuels that enabled the Royal Air Force to win the Battle of Britain during World War II? Source: The New York Times: (a) "Herman Pines left Poland as a young man to seek the scientific career he might have been denied in his homeland as a Jew." (b) "Herman Pines, a chemist whose contributions laid the groundwork for the production of high-octane fuels, ... helped fuel the Spitfires and Hurricanes that foiled the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain in 1940... the Government declared the formula top secret but supplied the Royal Air Force with the new, more powerful fuel."

Reviewed: Lamaria (in progress)
Comment: Suitable for display on November 11, Remembrance Day which honors war dead (not just WWI)

Created by Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk). Self-nominated at 16:47, 17 October 2018 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

Adequate sourcing:
Neutral:
Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Suggest rewording hook, see ALT1 below. Also please edit your article for WP:Words to watch in order to ensure neutrality and encyclopedic tone. Catrìona (talk) 04:31, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

...ALT1... ~~... that Herman Pines, who left Poland to avoid Jewish quotas, helped develop high-octane aviation fuels that enabled the Royal Air Force to win the Battle of Britain?~~
- I disagree. Please note that anti-semitism is defined by Wikipedia itself as "hostility to, prejudice, or discrimination against Jews", all of which are factually supported by sources quoted in the Herman Pines article, which discuss conditions for Jews at Polish universities in the 1920s and 1930s. Furthermore, anti-semitism is not included in WP:Words to watch. I would therefore prefer the original. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 02:15, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
  - @Mary Mark Ockerbloom: I think you may have misinterpreted me. Some issues with Words to Watch in the article:
    - important scientific contributions
    - productive 22-year scientific collaboration
    - next major discovery
    - important war-time accomplishment
    - He has made important contributions
    - Pines' pioneering work on the catalysis of hydrocarbon reactions has been essential to the oil refining and chemical industries.
  - All of these accomplishments can (and should) be described in a more encyclopedic tone. (See WP:Words to watch). As for "antisemitism" vs. "Jewish quota", the latter is a subset of the former and since the article states that he left because of prohibitions restricting Jewish students from attending university it is more specific to say that he emigrated because of Jewish quotas rather than antisemitism, although either would be correct. Catrìona (talk) 18:24, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
    - Thank you for being clearer about your concerns, it generally makes it easier to address if you are specific. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 16:05, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
      - @Catrìona: I've struck your suggested ALT1 because there were a lot more reasons to leave Poland than just anti-Jewish quotas; however, I would be happy to adapt your idea as follows, and I've modified the article to specifically use the term Jewish quota. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 16:57, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
        ...ALT2... that Herman Pines, who was unable to attend university in Poland because of Jewish quotas, helped develop high-octane aviation fuels that enabled the Royal Air Force to win the Battle of Britain during World War II?

Mary Mark Ockerbloom Thanks for your work improving this article! There are a few issues with the hook. One is that it's over the limit of 200 characters, and the other is that the citation in the article may need to be tightened. The Nyt article is unfortunately very vague, meaning that we have to rely on the book source for unable to attend university in Poland because of Jewish quotas. The current page range is quite wide. You should try to keep it to the 1 to 2 pages where that specific fact is mentioned. And, although not necessary for DYK, I am not sure what you mean by other restrictions that prevent Jewish students from attending university. Catrìona (talk) 22:51, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

@Catrìona: Pines left Poland because of many types of restrictions including anti-Jewish economic measures such as licensing requirements, restrictions on the type of work you could learn or practice, and ability to practice professions. Universities were affected not just by Jewish quotas restricting numbers of students, but also regulations banning Jews from living in dormitories, and seating ghettos in classes. Jewish students also suffered from violent harassment, in part because restrictions like seating ghettos made them easier to target. The book goes into all that in detail, hence the wide page range cited. The thing is, I don't think going into that in detail is appropriate for the article on Pines, so I'm trying to summarize. Since you find "other restrictions" too vague, I've substituted "anti-Jewish practices" and given tighter page range citations both for quotas and conditions at the university generally. My apologies for not catching the length issue; here is a less wordy version of ALT2: Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 02:18, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- ...ALT2a... that Herman Pines, who could not attend university in Poland because of Jewish quotas, helped develop aviation fuels that helped the Royal Air Force to win the Battle of Britain in World War II?

Ah, fair enough. This looks good to go. Catrìona (talk) 02:32, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I came by to promote this, but the hook fact about the fuels helping the Royal Air Force win the Battle of Britain is not explicitly stated in the New York Times source. Since it's a pretty sweeping statement, do you have another source that confirms it? Yoninah (talk) 12:13, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

@Yoninah: The following source states it even more clearly: Source: "the Royal Air Force received 100-octane fuel from the United States, which improved the speed and power of British fighter planes and allowed them to stave off the German threat. The Battle of Britain was a crucial victory for the Allies during World War II, and it can be attributed in part to the work of two chemistry professors at Northwestern. Both immigrants, Vladimir Ipatieff, from Russia, and Herman Pines, from Poland" Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 12:56, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. Restoring tick for ALT2a. Yoninah (talk) 14:58, 6 November 2018 (UTC)