Template:Did you know nominations/Heramba
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 00:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
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Heramba
[edit]
... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with fearsome rites which prescribed killing a victim?
- Reviewed: Dada Masiti
Created by Redtigerxyz (talk). Self nominated at 13:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC).
New enough, long enough, the hook is cited/short enough/interesting, but a little confusing. I think it can be written better grammatically. QPQ Done. Article conforms to Wikipedia policy. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 21:25, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- I replaced "prescribed to kill a victim" with "prescribed killing a victim". MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 01:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks User:Mandarax. User:Jeremy112233, can you please check Mandarax's improved wording.--Redtigerxyz Talk 05:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- What meaning of "prescribe" is being used here? The killing of the victim is not mandated by the rites. Also the use of "fearsome" is obviously used as a substitute for the "fearful" of the source which strikes me as an adjectival flourish rather than an attempt to convey any real information. Belle (talk) 08:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Belle, taking a cue from your copyedit.
ALT ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which the adept can cause the target to be killed?--Redtigerxyz Talk 12:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC) - User:Jeremy112233, is the ALT acceptable?Redtigerxyz Talk 17:40, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- The term "adept" is confusing in this sense. Something simpler like "rites, through which an individual can cause their target", in order for most readers to understand what you are trying to convey. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 15:49, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestion, User:Jeremy112233. ALT2
... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites, through which an individual can cause their target to be killed?--Redtigerxyz Talk 16:47, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestion, User:Jeremy112233. ALT2
- The term "adept" is confusing in this sense. Something simpler like "rites, through which an individual can cause their target", in order for most readers to understand what you are trying to convey. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 15:49, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- Belle, taking a cue from your copyedit.
- What meaning of "prescribe" is being used here? The killing of the victim is not mandated by the rites. Also the use of "fearsome" is obviously used as a substitute for the "fearful" of the source which strikes me as an adjectival flourish rather than an attempt to convey any real information. Belle (talk) 08:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
That fixed it, I think the article is good to go now. Jeremy112233 (Lettuce-jibber-jabber?) 16:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Pulled ALT2 from prep. Wikipedia's MP can't be saying that certain rites actually kill people (unless they actually do, I suppose). Maybe something like
- ALT3 ...
that the rites of Heramba (pictured) purport to allow their adepts to inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death?
-- but I'm not comfortable concocting a new hook on the fly. (I see adept was rejected earlier, but it's exactly the right word in this context. In any event the hook that was promoted certainly is inappropriate.) EEng (talk) 02:21, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- EEng, IMHO "purport" is editorizing. The reference uses the "can" tone. Also the rites of Heramba suggests "all" rites, also they are only connected to Heramba. There are six Tantric abhicara rituals, not solely associated with this deity; there are other deities. So I suggest "associate". Six rituals, each for a different purpose, one of them is murder. So I had "prescribe" in the original hook. These rituals are recommended as a recipe for murder; we do not comment if they work or not. I also agree that the simpler word "individual" is fit for DYK; but the article should have "adept", a term which confuse readers.
- ALT4 ...
that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites, which are recommended so that an individual can cause their target to be killed?
EEng, I am sure you can suggest something better than ALT4. :) Redtigerxyz Talk 14:28, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not setting myself up as the person who can compose the best hook all the time. Though I'm happy to contribute what I can along those lines, I'm primarily interested in keeping bad hooks from reaching the main page. Purport is exactly the right word -- it allows description of a claim, with an implication of skepticism. If the source uses a can tone, then it's either a primary source which really believes the claim, and so probably isn't a source we should be using, or it's a secondary source which speaks from the point of view of the belief system it's describing, knowing that the reader will understand that it (the source) it doing that for descriptive convenience, and isn't attesting to the truth of the belief (and this latter, BTW, is the tone adopted in the article).
Not sure I understand the issue with the other deities and so on, but perhaps one of these satisfies that concern:
- I'm not setting myself up as the person who can compose the best hook all the time. Though I'm happy to contribute what I can along those lines, I'm primarily interested in keeping bad hooks from reaching the main page. Purport is exactly the right word -- it allows description of a claim, with an implication of skepticism. If the source uses a can tone, then it's either a primary source which really believes the claim, and so probably isn't a source we should be using, or it's a secondary source which speaks from the point of view of the belief system it's describing, knowing that the reader will understand that it (the source) it doing that for descriptive convenience, and isn't attesting to the truth of the belief (and this latter, BTW, is the tone adopted in the article).
ALT5 ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which, it is believed, one may inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death?
ALT6 ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which, their adepts believe, one can inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death?
- The bad stuff other than death I added because that's what the article says, but if for some reason you want to just leave it at death that's certainly fine with me. EEng (talk) 15:25, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- EEng, ALT5 is the most neutral, accurate and hooky IMO but possibly "on his victim" will make it clearer. ALT7 ...
that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which, it is believed, one may inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death on his victim?--Redtigerxyz Talk 16:27, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- EEng, ALT5 is the most neutral, accurate and hooky IMO but possibly "on his victim" will make it clearer. ALT7 ...
- The bad stuff other than death I added because that's what the article says, but if for some reason you want to just leave it at death that's certainly fine with me. EEng (talk) 15:25, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
"one ... his" is a little unusual. How about
- ALT8 ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which, it is believed, one may inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death on a victim? EEng (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
BTW "it is believed" can sometimes be problematic when it's a claim like "largest ice cream cone ever", but here it's clear it's something that's believed by... well, by whoever it is that believes it. EEng (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
- Good with ALT8. Striking all other ALTs to avoid confusion. EEng, thanks for hook. Do we need the green tick again or we are good to go?Redtigerxyz Talk 04:43, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
- It's always a good idea to have The Green One at bottom. Here... I'll have my slave do it...
Ta DA! 05:24, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
ALT8 to prep2. Oh, wait... I'm changing "it is believed" to "some believe" -- I hope that's OK. EEng (talk) 13:37, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
I have been uncomfortable with this hook and its several variations for some time. Last night I altered it to remove the "it is believed" phrase which I think had obvious problems, but I still felt uneasy. Today I went back the queue, saw this hook again, and decided it still had serious problems, which I attempted to rectify on the fly with the following:- (ALT9): ... that the deity Heramba, protector of the weak, is associated with rites for inflicting harm on one's enemies?
- - Redtigerxyz quickly reverted back to the previous hook, so there was little choice but to pull the nomination back here for further discussion.
- My concern with the original hook selected is that it may give a highly misleading and prejudicial impression to the reader. The reader is introduced to the topic with a reference to "rites [which] may inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death on a victim". In the first paragraph in the article, he then reads that the associated deity "is popular in Nepal". Later, a section called "worship" reinforces the impression that Heramba is associated primarily with vengeance against one's enemies.
- This bothers me a great deal because it inevitably leaves the impression that a large chunk of the Nepalese population spends its time muttering imprecations against their "enemies" in the temple. It also arguably presents Hinduism itself in a negative light. I would describe these as exceptional ideas requiring exceptional sources, but the article clearly doesn't contain them. What the sources do say is that Heramba is seen as a "protector of the weak" and I think it highly likely that this is the quality most appreciated by worshippers. We need to be very careful on Wikipedia not to inadvertently disparage or stereotype other peoples or their cultural practices. So I remain opposed to the original hook, and stand behind my proposed ALT. Gatoclass (talk) 05:34, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- I might add that I think the article could also use a tweak or two. Gatoclass (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, for Pete's sake! (Note: Not intended as blasphemy -- see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive844#Abuse_by_User:EEng) For that matter maybe we shouldn't imply that people in Nepal believe that the way to protect the weak is to inflict harm on people. By this reasoning we can't have a hook that says, "DYK, that the God of the Old Testement describes himself as 'a jealous God'" (after appropriate wrangling over whether the G is capitalized and whether himself should be himself/herself/itself, of course). We are entitled to rely that the reader's native shrewdness will allow him (or her) to understand that the hook highlights only a single aspect of a complex belief system -- we only get 200 characters, remember, so it's kind of a Holy Twitter.
As to what proportion of the population believes this or that, I tried to address that with ALT6 above, and note my comments here
- I think there's a slight chance we'll get pushback for "it is believed" which is why I changed it [to "some believe"], but no big deal either way
- Yes, once again my crystal ball proves prescient! (Note: Not intended as an admission that I practice conjuring, soothsaying, or other darks arts.) EEng (talk) 06:25, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, for Pete's sake! (Note: Not intended as blasphemy -- see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive844#Abuse_by_User:EEng) For that matter maybe we shouldn't imply that people in Nepal believe that the way to protect the weak is to inflict harm on people. By this reasoning we can't have a hook that says, "DYK, that the God of the Old Testement describes himself as 'a jealous God'" (after appropriate wrangling over whether the G is capitalized and whether himself should be himself/herself/itself, of course). We are entitled to rely that the reader's native shrewdness will allow him (or her) to understand that the hook highlights only a single aspect of a complex belief system -- we only get 200 characters, remember, so it's kind of a Holy Twitter.
- (edit conflict) User:Gatoclass, The new hook mixes two traditions: the heterodox Tantra and the orthodox Brahmanical Hinduism. "Protector of the weak" is from the the latter and inflict harm from the former. He is an important Tantric deity; besides his mainstream worship so I don't think it is UNDUE to focus on one of the facets of a complex deity. Also, how does Hinduism become negative if adherents pray for destruction of enemies? In many ancient cultures, warriors go to the gods for destruction of foes; Athens prays to Athena; Troy to Apollo; Buddhists approach Mahakala; Hindus pray to warrior/Tantric deities like Kali, Bhairava, Durga, Heramba. I also do not understand how "This form is particularly popular in Nepal" translates into "it inevitably leaves the impression that a large chunk of the Nepalese population spends its time muttering imprecations against their "enemies" in the temple." Anyways, I am adding a hook from the mainstream tradition:
- ALT10 ... that the god Heramba (pictured), protector of the weak, is worshipped for the destruction of one's enemies and gaining fearlessness to face them?
- --Redtigerxyz Talk 06:02, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
What improvements in the article are needed? Redtigerxyz Talk 06:04, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- The problem is that when you say something like Heramba "is worshipped for the destruction of one's enemies and gaining fearlessness to face them" you are implying that is all, or mainly what he is worshipped for, when we don't have sufficient evidence for that. When you suggest that an entire cultural group is regularly worshipping a deity "for the destruction of [their] enemies" that is clearly an inappropriate impression to leave, unless you have impeccable sources to demonstrate it. So I don't think this is an appropriate ALT either. Gatoclass (talk) 07:04, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, what about ALT6 (or maybe ALT3, about which there was some concern I didn't grasp)? EEng (talk) 07:11, 1 July 2014 (UTC) P.S. Gatoclass, I do share your concern to some extent. If we offend the wrong people we may all find ourselves the victims of delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death -- and then who will watch over DYK? However, if we're lucky all we'll get is the delusions, which won't be a problem since many delusional people function quite well at DYK.
- (edit conflict) Gatoclass, I still don't get what the problem is. The ref detailing the thirty-two forms of Ganesha clearly states that he is worshipped for this very purpose. Have added another ref on the deity Ganesha. What is offensive about the "destruction of foes"? Redtigerxyz Talk 07:29, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Concurring with EEng, ALT6 seems to address your all concern, when we explicitly say adept. ALT6 ... that Heramba (pictured) is associated with rites by which, their adepts believe, one can inflict delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death?Redtigerxyz Talk 07:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Gatoclass, I still don't get what the problem is. The ref detailing the thirty-two forms of Ganesha clearly states that he is worshipped for this very purpose. Have added another ref on the deity Ganesha. What is offensive about the "destruction of foes"? Redtigerxyz Talk 07:29, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
One thing that never ceases to amaze me at DYK is how passionately some reviewers will argue over every nuance of meaning regarding an utterly trivial matter, but when it comes to potential slurs upon an entire ethnic or religious group (unless of course it is one's own), suddenly any instance of sloppy or misleading wording is met with indifference. My own view is that such statements should be policed at least as rigorously as statements pertaining to BLPs if not more so. Your example above Eeng is not very good BTW, a closer one might be something like: "did you know the Christian God commanded that blasphemers be burned alive?". Technically that may be an accurate statement (Leviticus, IIRC) but I think you'll agree it completely misrepresents Christianity. Even so, it would not be so much of an issue on en.wiki where most users would recognize its inappropriateness, but what if a hook of that nature appeared on the wiki of another language whose users knew nothing of Christianity? That's the situation we are in here. Gatoclass (talk) 07:32, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, you're underestimating our readers. Your logic implies a hook can't offer a glimpse of anything rated PG or higher unless "the whole story" can be comprehended within the 200-character straitjacket. The article should place this one aspect in a balanced context, and since almost no reader (except those already familiar with the subject) will have any idea what belief system is even being referred to, until he clicks through to the article, there's no damage done by the hook even under your worst-case scenario for our readers' capacity to misunderstand. EEng (talk) 17:42, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, I can understand that Heramba's Tantric afflictions may be comfortable to all; but what is wrong with "destruction of foes" part, a very positive trait in Hinduism?--Redtigerxyz Talk 07:38, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Because for all I know, it is similar to the Leviticus example I gave above. Do we know how common it is for worshippers of Heramba to supplicate for "destruction of foes"? Or do they just enter the temple on a day-to-day basis simply to worship their chosen deity like most other believers? Gatoclass (talk) 08:06, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, Please do not compare Hinduism with Christianity or any other Abrahamic religion. They are poles apart. There are deities related to specific purposes in Hinduism. Heramba will be worshipped like any normal Hindu deity, on a day-to-day basis; but when a devotee wants the "destruction of foes"; the deity is specially specifically propitiated. Another example, Shashthi is the goddess of childbirth; she will be worshipped everyday; her temples would not be abandoned; but the specific purpose of her worship is to get children or for protection of the newborn. So when there is a need for children, she will be approached; not a Ganesha or Heramba.
- Because for all I know, it is similar to the Leviticus example I gave above. Do we know how common it is for worshippers of Heramba to supplicate for "destruction of foes"? Or do they just enter the temple on a day-to-day basis simply to worship their chosen deity like most other believers? Gatoclass (talk) 08:06, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
ALT11 ... that the god Heramba (pictured), protector of the weak, is recommended to be worshipped for the destruction of one's enemies? Redtigerxyz Talk 09:49, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, let's go with ALT9 and end this. ALT9 ... that the deity Heramba (pictured), protector of the weak, is associated with rites for inflicting harm on one's enemies? Redtigerxyz Talk 10:02, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Redtigerxyz: I've made some tweaks to the article. If you have no objections to them, this nom is ready for promotion. Gatoclass (talk) 12:31, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, just removed self-confidence, as not in ref. Everything else is good. Thanks. --Redtigerxyz Talk 13:09, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
- AUS DER TIEFEN RUFE ICH, HERR, ZU DIR! Not yelling, but God is far from DYK, as well all know. Deliver us from these depths, O Lord, by putting here a green tick for ALT9! But who, O Lord, who amongst Thy servants is worthy to place such a tick, since all have now had a hand in tweaking the article and/or the hooks? EEng (talk) 22:27, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
- I can still verify the hook, utilizing one of my special administrators' abhichara. Just kidding. But actually, I can still verify the hook since my changes only amount to copyediting, which is allowed under the rules. However, I haven't done so yet since I want a little more time to think about this nom. Gatoclass (talk) 13:10, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
- I haven't forgotten about this nom, just haven't found time to get back to it yet. I don't like the change Redtigerxyz made but haven't thought of an alternative wording yet. The problem with some of these noms of Red's is that they are based on very flimsy sourcing which doesn't necessarily present a full and balanced picture of the practices of worshippers and we need to be careful not to over emphasize fringe practices. I have actually been considering a trip into town to visit the city library which may have some more info, or perhaps my local university library, but I have a lot to do off-wiki right now so if I make the effort it probably won't be for some time yet. Gatoclass (talk) 04:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Slumbering for eons, lets get the much-debated-and-finalized ALT9 (repeated here for ease) out from here. The image is also good to go being in PD.
- ALT9 ... that the deity Heramba (pictured), protector of the weak, is associated with rites for inflicting harm on one's enemies?
- §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 05:42, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
- Since this has gone on so long, and made one or two trips to prep and back already, I just want to say now that I'm happy with this hook, and encourage any dissent or potential changes to be registered here before it goes to prep for what we can only hope is the final time. EEng (talk) 03:18, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
There being no apparent dissend, repeating tick seen above, for ALT9 with img. EEng (talk) 19:05, 16 August 2014 (UTC)