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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Z1720 (talk) 17:12, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Heather Engebretson

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  • ... that when Heather Engebretson portrayed the title role of Puccini's Madama Butterfly for the first time, a reviewer noted that her voice was trembling in panic and brilliant in hope? Source: [1]
    • Reviewed: to come

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 20:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC).

I shall review this. Storye book (talk) 14:53, 8 July 2022 (UTC)


General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Thank you, Gerda, for an article about one of those rare sopranos who was actually born with a beautiful voice. I listened to her on Youtube and she doesn't warble (yay!) and the beauty of tone is such that any mistakes kind of don't mattter. Power to her.

I carried out a minor copyedit, and also rephrased a couple of sentences to avoid copyvio (content unchanged). That does not affect DYK.

Both hooks are fine, but I prefer ALT0 because the phrasing allows a dramatic immediacy in the second half. So (when you have done your QPQ) this nom should be good to go with a preference for ALT0. Storye book (talk) 15:32, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for a dedicated review! I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Coyote en Ayuno. I am sorry that I missed checking the previous content for copyvio, and thank you for the fixes also! Did you see the Butterfly trailer? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:17, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
No worries, Gerda, the copyvio that Earwig found was tiny - there wasn't much to do. I didn't see the Butterfly trailer - I saw the slightly shaky concert vid - probably quite early in her career? - and her beautiful voice rose above all that. You chose a good subject, there.
Good to go with ALT0 and ALT1, ALT0 preferred. Storye book (talk) 15:38, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: as far as I know, quotes still need to be placed in quotes even if translated – I can't access the source, so could you do that for me, please? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 12:32, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
@Theleekycauldron:
  • Google translate from the page linked as source by Gerda, above: "Heather Engebretson is a delicate woman with a voice that is strong yet so light, seemingly effortless even in the outbursts, that can tremble with panic and glow with hope. She, like Kelsey Lauritano as Suzuki, sang the role on stage for the first time in her life".
  • The original passage is " Heather Engebretson ist eine zarte Frau mit einer starken, dabei so leichten, selbst in den Ausbrüchen scheinbar mühelosen Stimme, die vor Panik zittern und voller Hoffnung leuchten kann. Sie hat, genau wie Kelsey Lauritano als Suzuki, die Rolle zum ersten Mal in ihrem Leben auf der Bühne gesungen".
  • I think we can accept that "trembling in panic and brilliant in hope" is not a quotation, but is a paraphrase by Gerda, and therefore does not require quotation marks. If you used quoation marks, other translators might well argue with the translation, including those "translators" who use Google Translate and believe all its "translations" (just try it with Japanese - hilarious). Just my opinion.
  • Note that ALT0, written by Gerda, uses the word, "that", implying that the trembling and hope bit is a paraphrase, rather than a quotation. ALT1 by Gatoclass uses the phrase, "described her voice as", giving the false impression that the trembling and hope bit is a quotation. So thank you for alerting me to this. I have struck ALT1 for being misleading, and adjusted my review accordingly. Storye book (talk) 14:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Good to go with ALT0. Storye book (talk) 14:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Same: It isn't an exact quote. The full sentence (which is sadly too long for DYK) translates (Deepl) to: "Heather Engebretson is a delicate woman with a strong yet so light voice, seemingly effortless even in the outbursts, that can tremble with panic and shine with hope." What do you think: would "shining" be better - more like a candle than a diamond? We also read about her acting: "Engebretson shapes the destruction of Cio-Cio-San's personality with feverish precision. The director's clinical-analytical view of this character's repressions and overacting ..." - good observation, but for an opera singer, voice comes first. "seemingly effortless even in the outbursts" could also be used (that in quotation marks), but I believe panic and hope are stronger, emotionally. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:12, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
The problem would then be that we can't really use such flowery language in wikivoice, even in paraphrasing to some extent – it's safest to stick with a direct (even if truncated) quote. Whatever you think works best is fine, but quotes are probably a must-have. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 21:28, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
I don't agree, - it's a summary. - "Engebretson shapes the destruction of Cio-Cio-San's personality with feverish precision" is not flowery language but precise observation. Obliging:
ALT0a: ... that when Heather Engebretson portrayed the title role of Puccini's Madama Butterfly for the first time, a reviewer noted that her voice "can tremble with panic and shine with hope"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, Gerda Arendt.
Good to go with ALT0a. Storye book (talk) 07:39, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: The article doesn't quote the reviewer, but rather paraphrases them. Do you want to change the article to add the quote, or change the hook to a paraphrased statement? Z1720 (talk) 14:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for asking what I want, - a rare treat. I wanted it paraphrased, see original hook, but obliged to quote, and now will oblige to quote in the article, and after DYK will probably return to paraphrase. What a waste of time ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:09, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Readding tick, issue resolved. Z1720 (talk) 14:23, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
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