Template:Did you know nominations/Havo voor Muziek en Dans, Codarts

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Carabinieri (talk) 01:03, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Havo voor Muziek en Dans, Codarts

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... that the Havo voor Muziek en Dans and Codarts, the Conservatory of Music and Dance Academy in Rotterdam, share the same teachers?

Created/expanded by Aymatth2 (talk), Dr. Blofeld (talk). Nominated by Dr. Blofeld (talk) at 17:18, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Reviewed Bergen Greenland Company and Herbert Olivecrona

Codarts. New enough, sufficiently expanded, long enough, good coverage of topic, clearly written, well referenced, no over-close translation or copyvio found in checks of about 3/4 of the references. Hook fact also appears in this article, with a ref. Putting this review first since the other article in the nomination needs a few issues addressed. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:27, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Havo voor Muziek en Dans. Expansion sufficient and recent enough at time of nomination, article long enough. I regrouped some info and removed refs from the lead paragraph, placing them in the body of the article instead. I also removed some purely evaluative wording, such as that the school is warm and nurturing (in the source, but not NPOV, and the summary of the official report makes specific points along those lines). I evaluated over half the references. I found some close translating in the bits sourced to the two web pages on the documentary; most I removed as unnecessary fluff, but "large and small dramas" remains. This might be better in quotes. Otherwise I did not see any overly close wording. The text is supported by the references, although I am assuming good faith on some of the points in the official evaluation; that one was hard for me to skim with the low level of my knowledge of Dutch. I wonder whether "5th grade" is accurate; might it mean 5th year at the school, i.e., final-year students? The second web page on the documentary contains the information that the school is (was) 40 years old; I miss in the article when it was founded, when the current building was built, and whether it has always had this relationship with Codarts, and suggest adding information on the history for complete coverage of the topic. The hook is not entirely thrilling; perhaps the history provides a way to spice it up, such as that they came together or that one was spun off the other? Also it would be better to source it to somewhere in addition to the school's own website. Is the point stated in the official evaluation, for example? . . . I have to go offline soon; I also intend to review Codarts. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:48, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your careful and thoughtful review and improvements. "Warm and nurturing" is indeed fluffy. "Large and small dramas" may belong in the the article on the movie, but not the school, so I have chopped it. Yes, it should say 5th year, not 5th grade, and I have fixed that too. The youngest student is aged 12. I do not know and could not find out how the high school and the academy co-evolved, which bugs me. The Codarts article says the building was completed in 2000. I personally find the building rather interesting. How about ALT1 below? Aymatth2 (talk) 23:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

ALT1 ... that the Codarts building (pictured), which houses the Havo voor Muziek en Dans, has a "box-in-box" design?

That's possible, but only likely to excite architects, I think. Have you checked for newspaper coverage? I don't have enough Dutch to try that. Failing that, what about:

ALT2 ... that the building housing Codarts and the Havo voor Muziek en Dans extends over part of the De Doelen conference center (pictured)? Yngvadottir (talk) 04:26, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I am o.k. with ALT2. It is sort of an optical illusion though. The Codarts building and De Doelen extension were built at the same time and would be revealed as one building if their facades were removed. But the hook is fine. Aymatth2 (talk) 11:55, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

OK, since there seems to be a rule these days that I can't sign off on my own hook, let's have someone else look at it. Meanwhile, if you find anything independent supporting the shared staff, message me and I'll checkmark the original hook. --Yngvadottir (talk) 12:04, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why you can't. The hook may get changed when the article is promoted anyway. The original hook is supported by this page, the first source cited in the Havo article, third paragraph. Self-published I suppose, but there is absolutely no reason to disbelieve it. It would be extraordinary if this were a false claim. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:38, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the problem is that that is the school's own site. The RotterdamWorld source says something that to me looks a little different: "De leerlingen van de Havo/vwo voor Muziek en Dans worden intensief begeleid door docenten van het Rotterdams Conservatorium of de Rotterdamse Dansacademie. . . . Leerlingen krijgen muziek- en dansles van conservatorium- en dansacademiedocenten". To me that does not mean all the dance and music instructors are from Codarts, but maybe it does and that ref could be added to avoid the problem with the original hook? I'm hoping another reviewer will come along and opine. (I think this rule is instruction creep, but it has been invoked several times recently at WT:DYK.) (I did a search myself but no luck - I don't have the language skills.) Yngvadottir (talk) 17:06, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I should have spotted that - sorry. I added the RotterdamWorld source as a source for the lead, which did not have one, and which is covered by the source. RotterdamWorld says that the students get instruction from Codarts teachers (from the conservancy or the dance academy). Presumably the teachers of conventional subjects like Dutch or Mathematics are not from Codarts, and not all Codarts teachers teach the students. But some do and the independent source backs it up. I propose the following variants of the original hook, one with and one without the picture. The second is slightly puzzling so, I think, better: Aymatth2 (talk) 19:55, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

ALT3 ... that students at the Havo voor Muziek en Dans are taught music and dance by teachers from Codarts (pictured)?

ALT4 ... that students at the Havo voor Muziek en Dans are taught music and dance by Codarts teachers?

Yes, I think that overcomes the problem - I have changed the wording in both articles to specify music and dance classes, and added that independent reference to the sentence in both. I also marginally prefer ALT4, but ALT3 is fine too, and it's an intriguing picture that shows well at the small size (and the licence appears to my unlawyerly eye to be free enough), so check mark is for both. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:34, 17 May 2012 (UTC)