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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BlueMoonset (talk) 15:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Gorce Mountains

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Gorce Mountains, view from Jaworzyna

Created by Poeticbent (talk). Self nom at 16:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Please note, the English language source for the hook translates Latin: Salamandra salamandra as spotted salamander which is not correct. It means fire salamander. Latin name of spotted salamander is Ambystoma maculatum. There are other sources in the article confirming that also in the Polish language. Thanks. Poeticbent talk 16:38, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Question about articles. You refer to the mountains as "Gorce", without the definite article (the). Is this correct English usage? In my experience, ranges always get the definite article. The Interior (Talk) 22:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, The Interior. I think you made a valid point. There’s also a chain called La Gorce in Florida, which makes me vigilant about any unintended mistake, but I could use a good piece of advice from a linguist who can actually feel the difference between the Fraser River, and just Fraser as we say it around here. Here are some examples of "Gorce" without a definite article. Thanks. [1][2] Poeticbent talk 23:20, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Looking into if further, mountain ranges always do get "the". The BBC agrees: "individual mountains: zero article; mountain groups: the", Purdue/OWL agrees: [3]. I can't think of any exceptions. In your link, I believe the author must have been referring to Gorce as a region, rather than a range. Rivers also, it's always "I was boating on the Fraser", never "My cousin pushed me into Fraser when we were drinking". The Interior (Talk) 01:28, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the links, The Interior. Very informative. Especially the BBC bottom part, quote: "Everest and K2 are the two highest mountains in the world, both situated in the Himalayas. The highest mountain in Britain is Ben Nevis, which you can find in the Grampians in the Scottish Highlands." Please note, all ranges are plural in the above examples: the Grampians, the Scottish Highlands, the Himalayas (or the Andes and the Rockies, in the Purdue/OWL examples). In fact most ranges in the world are plural in form, i.e. the Pyrenees, the Alps, the Carpathians, the Apennines, the Urals, etc. Singular forms are rare, i.e. the Karakoram. I suppose, the Gorce would belong to the same category, because there's no the Gorces. Would you suggest I go ahead and fix everything now per above? Thanks, Poeticbent talk 07:59, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
And in other news: Search for fisherman swept down Fraser continues. — I suppose this sort of newspaper reporting must have thrown me off. Poeticbent talk 09:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 Done. Thanks for reviewing, The Interior. Please see my ALT1 below. Poeticbent talk 16:39, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Reads much better now, thanks. Yes, newspaper editors do tend to toss out the articles when it suits them. I will give this a full review, perhaps not until the weekend though. Best, The Interior (Talk) 23:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Checks for length, date, agf for Polish referencing. I vote for original hook - ALT 1 doesn't read more and is more about the salamander than the mountains. Ready for prep. The Interior (Talk) 06:01, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
— Good comment about the wrong focus on salamander. I'm replacing it with proposed ALT2 (below), and crossing out unneeded ones. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 15:18, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks a million, The Interior; great job on your final touchups. Please note, referencing for the hook is in the English language [8] and does not require good faith. All best, Poeticbent talk 06:17, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The focus may have been wrong in earlier hooks, but ALT2 is problematic grammatically and in terms of focus. I think the order needs to be mountains, park, salamander. As I've been hoping to make this a lead hook, I won't suggest an ALT myself or do a final approval, since either would preclude me from selecting it later. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:41, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Please take a look at these two alts below. I'm sure we can work out something. Poeticbent talk 22:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I think it would be more effective to start "... that the Gorce Mountains (pictured) have", which puts the primary emphasis on the mountains, and then you can take your preferred approach after that. Now that I look at the various hook offerings, it seems to me that it's the fire salamander that's going to get you the most interest, especially if it's the only amphibian on the planet that does not hatch from an egg—I find that fact more interesting than the salamander being used by the park as a symbol. It's up to you whether you think it's interesting to include the park (or its function as a protected area) as the more precise location of the salamander. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:57, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I totally agree with you that the salamander can get us some real hits, but I still remember what happened when I linked the Szkieletor directly from the hook about NOT. The DYK target didn't get any traffic at all, in spite of much effort on our part. Meanwhile, the two non-target articles got 9,511 and 3,920 hits respectively on that day... Please take a look at the ALT6 below. Poeticbent talk 04:09, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • ALT6: ... that the Gorce Mountains (pictured) have almost fifty mammal species, some strictly protected; including the only amphibian on the planet that does not hatch from an egg?
  • I like the form of ALT6 a lot, but there's a problem: mammals and amphibians are different, but this reads as if the fire salamander is one of the almost fifty mammal species, and it isn't. If you keep the "only amphibian" phrase, I'd make it a piped link to "fire salamander" much like you did in ALT5. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • How about ALT7 below (185 characters)? I believe, it's OK to alter the words to conform with our DYK rules if necessary without worrying about COI. Poeticbent talk 06:11, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • ALT7: ... that the Gorce Mountains (pictured) have almost fifty mammal and over ninety bird species, as well as reptiles, and the only amphibian on the planet that does not hatch from an egg?
  • The statements on the fire salamander in the last few suggested hooks are completely untrue. This "fact" may be incorrectly mentioned in the article but the reference merely states "Salamandra salamandra is a live-bearing species, giving birth to 10 to 30 young". In this it is far from unique. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 11:30, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Here's exactly what our source says (left-hand side column, San Diego Zoo [4]), quote: "Fun facts • The fire salamander is the only amphibian that does not hatch from an egg. Instead, the babies develop inside the mother’s body..." I presume, the "only amphibian" means just that, the only one, and the only one on the planet, doesn't it? Poeticbent talk 15:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Though I have not checked the article, I have a suggestion:

-Suraj T 11:54, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Unfortunately your "Fun facts" is not a reliable source and this statement is untrue. I have just helped bring the article Amphibian through FAC and if you look here you will see that many amphibians are viviparous and give birth to live young. Fun fact 3 and 4 are also untrue. Find some other hook for your Gorce Mountains that has a more reliable source. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Here's a reliable source, a book on salamanders by Frank Indiviglio. Quote: "Fire salamanders have a quite unique breeding strategy. They do not lay eggs, but rather give birth to live larvae. Individuals living at high elevations [ditto: Gorce National Park mentioned] give birth to fully formed small salamanders, skipping the larval stage completely." (end of quote) [5] And, may I ask you to please stop using insults in your edit summaries? Thanks, Poeticbent talk 20:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Addendum. Perhaps you could also check your own sources in the process. In her book, Gillian Price says, quote: "Unlike the other 400 species of amphibian, salamanders do not lay eggs but give birth to perfectly formed live offspring."[6] Please tell us, what are the other "many" viviparous amphibians in your comment? Poeticbent talk 20:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
One more book, called Amphibian reproduction (2002) by Holt, Pickard, Roger and Wildt, speaks of two Salamandridae that give birth to fully formed offspring at high elevations, both found in Poland (montane only), one also in the Caucasus, that's it.[7] — Whatever's the truth about the breeding strategy of Fire salamander, it was not my intention to stir up controversy. We should look into other options in order to get it done and over with. Please consider the following. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 06:09, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • ALT9: ... that the Gorce Mountains (pictured) have almost fifty mammal and over ninety bird species, as well as reptiles and amphibians such as the rare Fire salamander?
I don't really want to argue with you over this. Gillian Smith is not a reliable source either on the matter of amphibians. There are in fact about 550 species of salamanders and over 6000 species of amphibians.[8] I agree that Salamandra salamandra reproduces by live birth but so do other salamanders (S. atra, S. lanzai, S. corsica, S. algira, S. infraimmaculata, Mertensiella luschani), the frogs (Nectophrynoides occidentalis, Nectophrynoides liberiensis) and about 75% of the caecilians. So it is not a characteristic unique to S. salamandra and should not be stated as such in the hook. What about this alternative hook: - Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:29, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
— Can you please hotlink those facts for us? Just the curiosity... Poeticbent talk 07:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Done! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
The paper says nothing about Fire salamander, or its breeding strategy. It lists only: Family Salamandridae (21–22 genera; 86 species; †9), Subfamily Pleurodelinae (16–17 genera; 69 species; †7), Subfamily Salamandrinae (4 genera; 15 species; †1) and Subfamily Salamandrininae (1 genus; 2 species) with notes. That's all. However, I consider this debate closed already. Poeticbent talk 16:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
I wrote my previous comment before seeing yours. I would agree with ALT9 if you omit the word "rare", the fire salamander is in fact quite common in southern and central Europe. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
— I'm also fine with your ALT10. Let's have BlueMoonset decide what's best. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 06:56, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • New reviewer needed for hooks ALT9 and ALT10. (If I review, I can't promote the article. I'd still like to, which means another reviewer is needed. I'm happy to decide between the two, assuming both are approved, at promotion time.) Also, striking the various "only amphibian" hooks. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:19, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Alt10 is verified, as for Alt9, I can verify that there are 90 bird species, but need some help with the ref for the fifty mammalian species. I think I prefer alt 10, as, in my mind anyway, the species numbers aren't that remarkable. The Interior (Talk) 06:14, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, The Interior. Whatever your personal preference, I just added a book quotation to the article with Google translate about fifty mammals for DYK confirmation. Here's what is says: Marek Cieszkowski (2004). Geografia i przyroda Gorców (Geography and botany of Gorce). Oficyna Wydawnicza "Rewasz". pp. 29–. ISBN 8389188198. Retrieved January 27, 2013. Google translate: Of the nearly fifty species of mammals living in the mountains and their foothills, in the first place, are the large predatory mammals: wolf and lynx. (Spośród blisko pięćdziesięciu gatunków ssaków zamieszkujących góry i ich podnóża na pierwszym miejscu należy wymienić duże ssaki drapieżne: wilka i rysia.) {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help) " — Thanks, again. Poeticbent talk 07:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
That works. Dang, those Google books urls are long! ALT9 and ALT10 ticked. The Interior (Talk) 07:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Many thanks to you both. I'm going with ALT10, which I also like better. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
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