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Template:Did you know nominations/Gerhard Erber

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:25, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Gerhard Erber

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Created by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 12:09, 20 May 2020 (UTC).

  • There is probably something else that could be said about the subject, because right now the hook will not appeal to anyone who does not follow the German classical music scene. I don't think the typical reader would even know what the Gruppe Neue Musik Hanns Eisler is nor its significance, which means the hook doesn't give enough context as to what makes Erber and his career special. The article seems to show that he's had a long and recognized career: surely another hook could be proposed based on that instead? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:38, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
  • (This is a disclaimer that Narutolovehinata5 and I talked about this off-wiki, though all opinions in this comment are mine.) I think there are other things can be said about Erber. Let's look at it from the viewpoint of a random reader who knows nothing about Gruppe Neue Musik Hanns Eisler. Why should someone flipping through the main page care about Erber? Can the hook be reworded in such a way that it would be interesting to those who aren't fans of opera? epicgenius (talk) 14:44, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
    Please don't ask me because I want to make the Gruppe known ;) - Do you have an elegant way to say how unusual it was for them to tour in the West? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
It's probably not going to help much if the audience remains limited and the typical reader does not know about the group, and in any case the subject is Erber and the hook should ideally focus on him. If there's a wish to focus on how rare it is for the group to tour internationally, it might be better to mention that in a hook about them instead. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:09, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
I disagree. Yes it's about Erber, and the key fact about him - for me - is that he wasn't one of these solo piano stars but played in ensemble with others, expressed by the hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Trying to say a bit harder that he would not have had these possibilities without the group:
ALT1: ... that as the pianist of the ensemble Gruppe Neue Musik Hanns Eisler from Leipzig, Gerhard Erber was able to play world premieres and tour internationally?
"world premieres" because they focused on Neue Musik (new music), and tour while the typical DDR performer could just play at home, for the decades it existed and restricted. I try not to get too much into politics, for a pianist. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Gerda Arendt, it has been four weeks since this was nominated and the QPQ has still not been supplied. I cannot in good conscience call for a new reviewer while the QPQ is missing. Please supply a QPQ right away. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:15, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
    I reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Statue of Mary Seacole. Sorry, within celebrations with real company (!), I had to take care of a FAC and an AfD first. Thanks for reminding me, - expanding the ensemble article is on my to-do-list. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:28, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
  • A full review can now be done now that a QPQ has been accomplished. With that said, there's probably something better that can be said about the subject other than ALT1 because pianists going on international tours isn't really uncommon, and the additional context (in that he's part of a group that doesn't usually go abroad) is not present in the hook and may not necessarily appeal to those who don't follow the German classical music scene. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:51, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
  • I came to review but, reading the article, there doesn't seem to be anything hook-worthy. Not all articles are, unfortunately. In the discussion above, Gerda says there's something interesting about the fact he was in an ensemble rather than solo which... I know enough about classical music, and that still sounds dry, so maybe it's a niche German thing? Of course, @Gerda Arendt:, is there anything else about him that could make a hook? Kingsif (talk) 12:26, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
    Why don't you just review articles you find attracive? This person wasn't the glamorous kind of pianist, - you may find that boring, I love it, teamwork and ensemble spirit. He was one of very few people in Cold War times to travel the world from Leipzig, - someone to word that? I tried, but it seems not obvious. It was easier to make a hook for Anna Blume, sure. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:32, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
  • I'll try not to be insulted by that. But fine, I won't review your hooks if you don't want me to. You do seem to reinforce the point, though: as I said, some articles may be about really notable, interesting, people, but not have anything worthy of a hook. If you're finding it hard to think of something to put in a hook, it's probably not worth nominating for DYK. You (general) don't need to write a DYK hook for everyone (and can't really, because in DYK terms what you're calling a lack of glamour really does mean boring.) Kingsif (talk) 12:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
    I didn't try to insult, just say where I see a waste of time. You may find lack of glamour boring, another reviewer might find team spirit attractive. I found it attractive enough to mention. A friend died, did you see that (in the link)? Why argue about different tastes? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Having read this, it occurs to me that the article could discus that he was an East German, and perhaps relate his performing to his life behind "the curtain." --evrik (talk) 18:55, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
    Eisler composed the national anthem of the DDR, - if that's not reference enough, go ahead, add. I'm busy with Monteverdi. I didn't write the article which was translated, - I only copy-edited. Germans tend to know where Leipzig is located, sigh. It's where Ulbricht had the Paulinerkirche dynamited, - that made headlines beyond classical music. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:48, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
  • ... Alt2 ... that Gerhard Erber was a founding member of the East German ensemble Gruppe Neue Musik Hanns Eisler and in 1970 one of the first to tour beyond the Iron Curtain. Citation needed --evrik (talk) 03:29, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
    Thank you for the offer, but wasn't there a tendency to get away from these "first" things? Do our young readers still know what iron curtain means? If yes, could it be put in the original? ... because I really prefer to speak of the premieres, for those who don't understand German, and don't know that neue Musik means new music. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
That's a bit on the complicated side. How about:
As for the "first thing", it seems to be more of trying to avoid hooks that are simply "X is the first woman Y" but other "first" hooks seem to be allowed. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:20, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for the offer. I miss "pianist", and think we can drop "founding" and "music ensemble", because the former doesn't help the hook much and "member" leads to some kind of ensemble, and we don't need music and Musik and musicians, I guess. I miss the premieres also, which I find more remarkable than the touring alone. I'd word something if I was able. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I like Alt3. How about this one:
  • I agree that ALT3b is more interesting to a broad audience than ALT0 because of the hook wording. As a music pleb, I have no idea who Hans Eisler is. But I do know about East Germany and the Iron Curtain, so the hook is interesting beyond music. Here is a full review: New enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced. Unable to check for close paraphrasing as all sources are foreign-language. There are 2 "citation needed" tags to take care of. In fact, the hook fact of him being among the first East German musicians to tour beyond the Iron Curtain is not sourced; the article only talks about the music group being the first ensemble to do so. Is that the same? QPQ done. Yoninah (talk) 21:18, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I don't know. One of the reasons I kept it basic. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:25, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
  • @Gerda Arendt: well, we could comment out those 2 lines, but then we're left with an unreferenced sentence about him being a founding member of the ensemble. And we don't have a hook fact anymore. Yoninah (talk) 22:01, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
    I don't know why you ping me when I explained that one of the lines I didn't write, and the other had it's ref before pushed to a different paragraph, but it's an offline source. That offline source possibly references the rest as well, but I don't know. I know that we have a substantial online source for these magnificent world premieres at places in the world. - Whatever the outcome here, can we please drop the link to East Germany? Iron curtain should be enough. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Pinging @Evrik: who suggested the alt. Do you also have a source for it? Yoninah (talk) 10:38, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
In this case it might be a better idea to keep the mention of East Germany because without it the context of performing outside the Iron Curtain would make less sense. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Sometimes I feel like I can't be understood? Did I say "don't mention"? I meant "don't link", and thought that should be clear. It's a problematic article, with a problematic name, and I want to have noting to do with it, please. Is that clear? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Each time I work on one of Gerda's nominations I say to myself, next time, I'm not going to work on a Gerda nomination. While I understand her desire to have other things in the hook, I went to the article and pulled what I thought was the most interesting tidbit. I was asked to source my Alt3b hook. Let me try.

  • that as the pianist - "Eisler". BBC Music Magazine. 8: 12. 1999. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  • for the ensemble Gruppe Neue Musik Hanns Eisler - "Messesonderkonzert - Gruppe Neue Musik Hanns Eisler". OMNIA (in German).
  • the first East German musicians to tour beyond the Iron Curtain? - Burkhard Glaetzner; Reiner Kontressowitz, eds. (1990). "Gruppe Neue Musik "Hanns Eisler" 1970–1990". Spiel-Horizonte (in German). Leipzig: 8. and Volker Straebel (1997-03-07). "Einst war Sozialistischer Realismus Gebot der Stunde. Die 16. Musik-Biennale, ganz den siebziger Jahren gewidmet, ist längst auch Schaufenster des Westens. Es lebe der Unterschied". Der Tagesspiegel (in German) (15915): 25.

I think that does it. Gerda, this is for you:

--evrik (talk) 21:12, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

  • Thank you, evrik. I feel the same way about these nominations. We all have to remember that we're not publishing books here, just posting (now 12-hour) hooks for people to glance at.
  • Your ALT5 is very good but unsourced. I hope it can be sourced. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 21:16, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
    Thank you for trying, but sorry, I think it won't work. The numbers look like for the ensemble, but not all works premiered were with piano. I count to 21 searching for his name in the complete list of premieres. I left it open intentionally. Sorry. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:01, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Striking Alt5, which leaves Alt3b, which is sourced. --evrik (talk) 01:42, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
    Please kindly free the article from the unsourced stuff, - actually more important. Sorry to be of little help, - a soprano died, I worked yesterday, she's on the Main page, now a pianist ... - these ITN tasks won't wait, and that's for thousands of readers. - he ensemble is on my to-do list. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:43, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Someone want to approve Alt3b? I think that's the last thing to do. --evrik (talk) 14:31, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Offline ref for ALT3b is AGF and cited inline. There are no more "citation needed" tags. Rest of my review above. ALT3b good to go. Yoninah (talk) 15:02, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
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