Template:Did you know nominations/George S. Zimbel

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:11, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

George S. Zimbel

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... that in 1954 documentary photographer George S. Zimbel made photographs of Marilyn Monroe in her famous white dress shoot on New York's Lexington Avenue, but never printed the pictures until 1976? Source: "Zimbel is nothing if not patient. He took those photos of Monroe in 1954, but didn’t develop them until 1976." - Montreal Gazette

ALT1:... that documentary photographer George S. Zimbel (born in 1926) is one of the the last surviving members of the Photo League? Source: "Zimbel is one of the last still-with-us, still-active photographers whose creative philosophy was directly influenced through participation in the Photo League program." - B&W Magaxine
ALT2:~~... that documentary photographer George S. Zimbel (born in 1926) is one of the the last surviving photographers to be directly influenced by the Photo League?~~ Source: "Zimbel is one of the last still-with-us, still-active photographers whose creative philosophy was directly influenced through participation in the Photo League program." - B&W Magaxine

Created by Verne Equinox (talk). Self-nominated at 22:54, 1 November 2016 (UTC).

The article is new and long enough, and there are no obvious copyvios. The problem with the hook is - how did Zimbel sell (or rather, fail to sell) the photographs, as the article states, when the source said he didn't develop them until 20 years later? For ALT1, I read the source more as saying he was one of the last surviving photographers influenced by the Photo League. I prefer the main hook, so that would be the one to focus on checking. Also, a QPQ is required. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 19:10, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

To answer the first question. The quoted source is inaccurate in that he 'developed' the film after he took the photos, but he never printed any pictures to sell. It was not until more than 20 years later that he went back to the negatives and made prints. He then started to show and sell them. Others photographers who were at the event sold them immediately afterwards, notably I believe, one Matty Zimmerman. Second question: see Alt2.

Reviewed - List of crossings of the Upper Passaic River Verne Equinox (talk) 12:55, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Okay, that's the QPQ done and the original hook explained, so let's go with that. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 16:12, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

@Verne Equinox and Ritchie333: I came to promote this but did not like the word "print" in the original hook. The source says "develop" which I see you have been discussing above, but "print" is a bit too specific for my liking. What about "publish" as a substitute? The hook is also a bit clunky and could do with being rephrased. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:03, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

ALT3 ... that George S. Zimbel didn't publish his white dress shoot of Marilyn Monroe for 20 years after he took the photos? Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 16:51, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

@Ritchie333 and Verne Equinox: I think publish is fine. I am ok with the rewrite.Verne Equinox (talk) 21:40, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

New reviewer required to check ALT3. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 16:51, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

ALT3 has been verified from this source, and is 116 characters long with spaces. The article is new enough, long enough, and mostly within policy. Several sentences in the article are not cited including, but not limited to: "...distributed by the National Film Board of Canada.", "...where they still reside.".--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 14:21, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

2 changes made to page. Thank you for the review. Verne Equinox (talk) 22:21, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

@Verne Equinox: thanks for the additional references. Please provide another for the dual citizenship statement.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:44, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

@RightCowLeftCoast: I spoke with Mr Zimbel in Montreal on the phone and he told me he had dual citizenship. Does "personal communication" count in Wikipedia? The only on-line reference is of his wife who notes in a blog that she has dual citizenship.Verne Equinox (talk) 19:34, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

@Verne Equinox: Please see WP:BLPPRIMARY & WP:BLPSPS. Better to not include it, if it cannot be verified to a secondary or tertiary source.

Also what is the relationship between the primary editor and the subject of the article? Is there a conflict of interest?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:28, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

@RightCowLeftCoast:I will take the sentence out of the article since I have no other source. I have no personal relationship with the subject. I telephoned him to ask him whether it might be possible to get a picture. To make a long story short, this fell thru.Verne Equinox (talk) 21:16, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

With this edit, the article appears to be within policy, and per the previous reply by Verne Equinox, there doesn't appear to be a conflict of interest. Another user is welcome to verify my review and the resolution to the issues I brought up. It should pass this time.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:51, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Everything looks in order. Article is new enough, long enough, neutrally written, well referenced, no close paraphrasing seen. ALT3 is by far the better hook and the most recognizable to a large audience, so I have struck ALT2. ALT3 hook ref verified and cited inline. QPQ done. ALT3 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:34, 31 December 2016 (UTC)