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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 02:35, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

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Gara Medouar, Tasghîmût, Paul Pascon

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Created by Drmies (talk). Self-nominated at 15:20, 6 July 2019 (UTC).

  • Note: I am in conversation with Dr. Capel, author of the main source for the article, about getting permission to use her photographs. They are SPECTACULAR. Drmies (talk) 14:55, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
  • These three articles are new enough and long enough. The articles are neutral and I detected no copyright or plagiarism issues. Three QPQs have been done. The hook is currently unsatisfactory. In trying to accommodate the names of the three articles, it has become convoluted. Why not mention Paul Pascon and his study of Gara Medouar first, but it is awkward fitting everything in, especially if you want to include The Mummy. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:59, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Cwmhiraeth, I didn't see you had commented here. I have not yet heard from Dr. Capel, so let's not wait any longer. What we could do is split them up, and give Pascon his own hook--just cut him out altogether:
  • ALT1 ... that the set for The Mummy (1999) was built at Gara Medouar, an 11th-c fortress on a rock plateau near Sijilmasa, Morocco, which resembles the 12th-c fortress Tasghîmût near Marrakesh?
  • ALT2 ... that archaeologist Paul Pascon was a pied-noir whose devotion to the situation of Moroccan peasants led him to adopt Moroccan nationality? Drmies (talk) 16:43, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I have numbered the new hooks, ALT1 and ALT2. ALT2 is fine, but I have problems identifying the hook facts in ALT1 in the articles. If you want to use ALT1, the Gara Medouar article will need to state that Tasghîmût fortress resembles it, or you could make a similar statement in the Tasghîmût article referring to Gara Medouar. Additionally, you need a citation in each article for the dates the forts were built, if you are going to mention these in the hook. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:34, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Cwmhiraeth. Dates are in the articles--both in the lead and in the body (Gara_Medouar#Date_of_occupation and Tasghîmût#Location_and_history). The resemblance is noted in the Tasghimut article ("The site, which also has evidence of neolithic occupation, resembles Jebel Mudawwar, as an oval, rocky plateau cut through by ravines, overlooking a surrounding plain. Like Jebel Mudawwar it has defensive lines that follow..."). Drmies (talk) 17:56, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: If you can add the Tasghîmût comparison information to the Gara Medouar article, I could give this nomination a tick. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:58, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Cwmhiraeth, done. The reference is the Capel article, already cited there. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 23:05, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you. This is good to go. The two hooks covering four articles can be promoted separately. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 04:47, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Hey promoter! Please wait a minute or a day--I just got permission for pictures from Dr. Capel, cited in the articles, and I need to get them up on Commons. Please bear with me: it's worth it. Drmies (talk) 14:13, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Green tickY ALT2 has been promoted.
  • @Drmies: do you have an image for ALT1, or can that be promoted? Also, shouldn't "century" be spelled out? Yoninah (talk) 22:04, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Yoninah, thanks for getting ALT2 going. In my academic writing I don't always spell "century" out, and on Wikipedia I abbreviate it frequently, I think, when used attributively. But it doesn't really matter to me. As for the image, I am waiting to hear back from User:AntiCompositeNumber about how to get the author's permission (which I have, in an email) "transferred" to Commons. The images are in this article--I think fig. 1 is best, though fig. 3 has the ramp built for the Mummy set. Dr. Capel is allowing us to use figs. 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, BTW. What do you think? Drmies (talk) 15:46, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: yes, fig 1 looks very interesting. Yoninah (talk) 17:16, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Yoninah, it finally happened: the images are uploaded, and the OTRS permission is--I assume--pending, since I sent them the emailed permission. I think File:Capel 1 Vue générale du Jebel Mudawwar depuis le sud-ouest.jpg is the one we should go with--can you make that happen? And while we're at it--thank you so much for your patience and for working with me. Drmies (talk) 17:41, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Yoninah, you know what is happening with this one? Thanks, Drmies (talk) 02:33, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: sorry, this dropped off my radar and also off the Approved page. I have moved it back to WP:DYKN awaiting the final tick. For readability sake, I am reprinting the outstanding hook and image below. Please let me know when the OTRS permission comes through.
Gara Medouar
Gara Medouar
  • This icon is solely to prevent a premature promotion of ALT1 prior to the OTRS permission for the image to be used. Once the OTRS permission goes through, anyone should feel free to restore Cwmhiraeth's original AGF tick. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:30, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: We're coming up to a month since my last post, and this is the oldest nomination on the Approved page. The image has still not been processed. Should we just skip it and promote the hook without an image? Yoninah (talk) 22:23, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Yoninah, the upshot of the discussion on Commons yesterday or the day before is that I have to email the photographer again. Sigh. Do what you think is best. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 23:16, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: OK, I reviewed both articles to restore the tick, but the Gara Medouar article doesn't really say it "resembles" the other site; it simply points out some common features, like shape and location. Yoninah (talk) 23:30, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree - it seems that the Tasghîmût article has just been tacked on to a hook about the Gara Medouar fortress. If one resembles the other, it would surely be the later fortress (Tasghîmût) resembling the earlier one (Gara Medouar). Perhaps the clause about Tasghîmût could be deleted? although then the nominator might want another hook based on that article. It's a pity that the image licences haven't come through - Gara Medouar could be a good hook for Halloween. RebeccaGreen (talk) 04:12, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Without wanting, really, to press the point, the source (Dr. Capel's article), does not speak of chronology, only of "very numerous similarities": "ce site présente de très nombreuses similitudes avec le Jebel Mudawwar : hormis un profil topographique très comparable – le Tasghîmût occupe une table rocheuse de plan ovale qui, entaillée en son centre par des ravinements, domine de plusieurs dizaines de mètres la plaine du Haouz (Fig. 8) –, les deux sites ont en commun une ligne de défense ininterrompue suivant les limites du massif, un important dispositif hydraulique mettant en jeu des barrages, des secteurs d’habitat dont une zone au statut privilégié et enfin une remarquable monumentalité des installations. La ressemblance entre les deux sites, quoique implantés dans des environnements différents (une plaine pour le Mudawwar, les piémonts atlasiques pour le Tasghîmût) et mettant en œuvre des techniques de construction différentes, est frappante." I'm a bit saddened by the fact that OTRS/Commons hasn't just signed off on Capel's email; I emailed her again, but have not yet heard back. I appreciate y'all's help. Drmies (talk) 15:30, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
If one resembles the other, it would surely be the later fortress (Tasghîmût) resembling the earlier one ... -- exactly what I'd been thinking. Having read the articles but not the sources, what about this one? Or does Gara Medouar need to come first if the "pictured" part stays (personally, I like the fact that the pictured one lies in the middle of the hook)? Etc.
Regards! Usedtobecool TALK ✨ 05:07, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I think it's time to split the hook, put Gara Medouar in an image slot with its The Mummy hook, and write a new hook for Tasghîmût. Pinging Drmies. BTW the Halloween image slot is already filled with another special occasion hook for that day. Yoninah (talk) 12:16, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I have just renumbered the most recent hook as ALT1a; we already had an ALT2 about Paul Pascon that was promoted to the main page in late August. If the hook on the two remaining articles is indeed split, please start at ALT3. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:59, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: in the interests of a short, catchy, lead image hook, could you provide a different hook for Tasghîmût please? Yoninah (talk) 21:18, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Yoninah, how's this? ...the medieval fortress of Tasghîmût in Morocco was already inhabited during the Neolithic, and that in recent times stones from its fortifications were used locally? And are we splitting up the two? So then we can use a picture for this one as well? Drmies (talk) 00:03, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Drmies, Yoninah, we'll also need a separate hook for Gara Medouar to supersede ALT1a. Pulling out the Tasghîmût info gives the following (and I'm reformatting the proposed Tasghîmût hook as well with minor edits):
  • ALT3: ... that Gara Medouar (pictured), the 11th-century fortress near Sijilmasa, is where the film set for The Mummy was built?
  • ALT4: ... that the medieval fortress of Tasghîmût in Morocco was already inhabited during the Neolithic, and that in recent times stones from its fortifications were reused locally?
Instead of ALT3, we could use a shortened variant of ALT1, which mentioned the film before the fortress:
Gara Medouar
Gara Medouar
  • Sure, I'm fine with those--but let's see if we can give Tasghimut a "pictured" also (File:Capel 8 Vue générale depuis le nord-ouest de la montagne du Tasghîmût.jpg)... And I prefer ALT3 over ALT1b. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:10, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
  • But The Mummy is going to have broader appeal. Yoninah (talk) 23:55, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________

  • OK, here are the two remaining hooks that we're working with:
Gara Medouar
Gara Medouar
  • ALT1b ... that the film set for The Mummy was built at Gara Medouar (pictured), an 11th-century fortress on a rock plateau near Sijilmasa, Morocco?
  • ALT1b hook refs are cited to a foreign-language source; AGF and cited inline. The image and others in the article are freely licensed. Rest of review per Cwmhiraeth. ALT1b good to go. Yoninah (talk) 23:50, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________

  • ALT4: ... that the medieval fortress of Tasghîmût in Morocco was already inhabited during the Neolithic, and that in recent times stones from its fortifications were reused locally?
  • Foreign-language hook refs AGF and cited inline. But I think the hook is too wordy; is there a different way you could write it? Yoninah (talk) 23:50, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
    • I'm sorry, Yoninah, but I can't. Let's just run with it. Drmies (talk) 00:07, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
      • ALT5: ... that artefacts from the medieval fortress of Tasghîmût include flint tools from the Neolithic, wooden gates (removed by Abd al-Mu'min), and stones, used locally for buildings?

        But this isn't less wordy, haha. Drmies (talk) 00:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  • @Drmies: ALT4 just feels like two facts clumped together. Could you do something with this:
  • ALT6: ... that much of the stone material studied by archeologists at the 12th-c fortress of Tasghîmût near Marrakesh has since been hauled off by local builders? Yoninah (talk) 00:22, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Yoninah, I was going for three facts, indicating thousands of years of occupation--but sure, that hook is fine. Drmies (talk) 15:02, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
  • @Cwmhiraeth: could you look at ALTs 4, 5 and 6 and offer your opinion? If you like one of them, please give it a tick. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 21:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT4 might have the old temporal problem again. I am not sure a "medieval" thing can already have been used in the neolithic. Usedtobecool TALK ✨ 22:04, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Approving ALT5 and ALT6. Not approving ALT4 for the reason mentioned by Usedtobecool. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:56, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Note to closing promoter: Please do not close this template until the last two hooks are promoted. Thank you. Yoninah (talk) 23:50, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Status update: ALT 5 or 6 is ready to promote. Then the template can be closed. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 16:43, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
It has been quite a ride! MPS1992 (talk) 20:45, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
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