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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 talk 12:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Frederick E. Olmsted

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Improved to Good Article status by Rublamb (talk). Self-nominated at 20:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Frederick E. Olmsted; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.


General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Dwkaminski (talk) 12:08, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Review Comments:

  • New Enough - updated to good article on Oct. 7th and submitted for DYK on 10/10
  • Long Enough - character count (without infobox and notes/references) shows 34,223 characters
  • Extremely well sourced
  • neutral tone in writing
  • plagiarism free - copyvio detector showed 10.7% - violation unlikely
  • hook interesting? - I think it could be improved. I struggle with "one of the founders of the national forest system in the United States". Without any reference or wikilink I'm not sure everyone will know what the national forest system is. I also like to see the notability put on the subject, not relative to someone else. Now a reader has to know or learn who Frederick Law Olmsted is. What do you think of ALT1: ....Frederick E. Olmstead was instrumental in the creation of over twenty national forests in California, including the Muir Woods National Monument?
  • No picture used
  • QPQ not required - user has only done 3 DYKs
  • @Rublamb: I've completed my review. Great article and extremely well sourced! See my proposed ALT1 and let me know what you think. Dwkaminski (talk) 20:36, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
  • @Dwkaminski: I almost submitted that, so I am fine with ALT1. Thanks for catching the QPQ issue. Rublamb (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Approving ALT1 Dwkaminski (talk) 22:18, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
  • @Rublamb, Dwkaminski, and Fritzmann2002: Hmm, a couple of issues here. Reviewers can't approve their own hooks, and I'm not sure where "at least twenty" or sole credit to Olmsted can be found in the source. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:17, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
  • @Theleekycauldron:Now the delay makes sense! You are correct that the source does not provide a number; it provides the names of the parks that I included in the article. Although counting comes up with that number for a summary, I agree it is not as clean as one would like for a DYK source (which is why I did not submit it as a hook). My first thought is to go back to my original hook. There are national forests in every state and his uncle is widely known because he designed Central Park. What do you think? Rublamb (talk) 21:40, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
    • I'm not opposed to using the original ALT beyond the personal preferences I expressed before. I would recommend to wikilink national forest if you decide to go back to that one. I would argue that the references in the intro section in support of "Olmsted was instrumental in the creation of over 20 national forests in CA including the Muir Wood National Monument" are strong. I would recommend expanding the page coverage in the USDA reference from just page 88 to 85-88. It would then cover Olmsted's placement as head of California Inspection district 5 and the full list of CA national forests. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:33, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
  • @Dwkaminski:@Theleekycauldron:, Page range is corrected. Dwkaminski, that was an excellent catch. I added the page numbers for GA nomination, at least a year after writing the article, and clearly did not get that one right. Does this now address any concerns regarding sourcing? I am agreeable to whatever you think is best. Rublamb (talk) 17:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
    • @Rublamb: Help me through the verification step on this one – on p. 88, I'm seeing that by the end of Olmsted's influence, there were only nineteen national forests in California. What am I missing on that one? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 05:58, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
      • The USDA article does add up to 19 national parks in CA. If you add the other reference of his involvement in Muir Woods - that reaches twenty. Makes sense to remove "over" and go with ALT1a: ....Frederick E. Olmsted was instrumental in the creation of over twenty national forests in California, including the Muir Woods National Monument?Dwkaminski (talk) 14:02, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
        • I found the same. 19 listed in the article (all correctly sourced to USDA p. 88), plus Muir Woods (Source: "Establishing Muir Woods National Monument". Save the Redwoods League. 2015-01-09.) The reason I stated at least 20 in the lede is that some of the 19 were formed were mergers of pre-existing national forests that are not included in the long list. As mentioned on p. USDA 88. Santa Barbara National Forest was formed from Stanislaus National Forest and San Jacinto National Forest, and Modoc National Forest was formed from part of Warner National Forest. Other national forests that were not listed in the article are San Luis Obispo National Forest and Stony Creek National Forest, again mentioned on USDA p. 88. So we know of 25 with Muir, although only 20 still exist because of mergers. It looks like we should add the Muir source for the hook. He also is responsible for Tongass National Forest in Alaska, so I have updated to lede to include Alaska. Rublamb (talk) 14:35, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
          • At least from the USDA source, I see San Luis Obispo as being incorporated into Santa Barbara and Stony Creek being incorporated into the California National Forest. It doesn't say Olmsted was instrumental in creating those parks that were incorporated into the other parks. I would leave Tongass out of the DYK and stay with ALT1a - twenty vs over twenty is not signficant in my mind. Let's see where @Theleekycauldron: is on this. Thanks! Dwkaminski (talk) 15:19, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
      • @Theleekycauldron:, Does the discussion above answer your question? Rublamb (talk) 22:36, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
        • @Dwkaminski and Rublamb: is Muir Woods a national forest? National monuments seem to be distinct... theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
          • @Theleekycauldron:, No, not the same. National forests can be chopped, while a monument is protected. Also, a monument is part of the National Park Service which reports to the Dept. of Interior. National Forests are under the Forest Service which is part of the Dept. of Agriculture. Having lived in an area that was surrounded by both national parks and national forests, their outreach staff spend a lot of time explaining the difference. Successfully, I guess, as I can answer your question. LOL> Rublamb (talk) 10:51, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
          • @Theleekycauldron and Rublamb: So ALT1a doesn't make sense then. How about ALT2: ....Frederick E. Olmsted was instrumental in the creation of nineteen national forests and the Muir Woods National Monument in California? Dwkaminski (talk) 13:03, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
            • Works for me! Do we wanna add the other two people involved for extra flavor? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:37, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
              • Do you mean Gifford Pinchot and Theodore Roosevelt? I'd say not, but it's up to @Rublamb:. Dwkaminski (talk) 13:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
              • Pinchot got plenty of coverage in history. I think maybe focus on Olmsted this time. Thanks for asking. Rublamb (talk) 13:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
  • We seem to be stuck with this review. If @Theleekycauldron: won't finalize this - can someone else take over the review since I proposed hook ALT2 ad can't approve it myself. Thanks! Dwkaminski (talk) 18:38, 19 November 2023 (UTC)


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