Template:Did you know nominations/Ferdinand the Saint Prince

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 ^talk 10:17, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Ferdinand the Saint Prince

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...the Portuguese royal, Ferdinand the Holy Prince (pictured), died in captivity in a prison in Fez?

ALT1:...that Prince Henry the Navigator handed over his brother Ferdinand the Holy Prince (pictured) as a hostage, yet preferred to let him die in captivity rather than fulfill the treaty he signed?
ALT2:...the Portuguese royal, Ferdinand the Holy Prince, died in foreign captivity as a hostage for a treaty that was later reneged?
Reviewed: Carrapateira, Faro
Comment: Not sure if it quite meets the 5x expansion, but perhaps worth noting that this is an approx. 5x expansion on top of a 3x expansion of the same article by the same author (myself) a year ago. ALT1 & ALT2 hooks are more hooky, but maybe a little too polemical.

5x expanded by Walrasiad (talk). Self nom at 10:57, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

For somebody who professes to be semi-retired that is a huge expansion. Excellent work. Looks good to go to me, somebody might check the length though, but its quality which is most important, not length.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:10, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Dr Blofeld that the expansion is excellent, but I have a quibble over the name. "Ferdinand the Saint Prince" is an awkwardly literal translation of Fernando o Infante Santo, but the subject isn't actually a Saint, so I guess "santo" here is more like "holy" than "saint", and "Ferdinand the Saint Prince" can't possibly be the name used for this prince in English-language reliable sources. The Catholic Encyclopedia calls him "Blessed Ferdinand", claiming that he was beatified by Pope Paul II in 1470, but I see that a footnote to the expanded article says the Catholic Encyclopedia is wrong. What should the article be called? Moonraker (talk) 22:34, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

"the Saint Prince" is just the common nickname used to distinguish him from the myriad of other Portuguese princes named Ferdinand. It is does not mean he is actually a saint, anymore than "Edward the Black Prince" means he's actually black, or that "Henry the Navigator" ever actually navigated anywhere. It's just the appellation that stuck. I don't know anybody who uses that nickname, whether in Portuguese or English, imagines he is actually a saint (calling him "St. Ferdinand" would imply that - but nobody calls him that). If he had a better known appelation or a more substantive title, I'd use it instead. But "the Saint Prince" is how he's commonly known, easily recognizable and used across other articles.Walrasiad (talk) 23:53, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

EDIT: Ah, I think I misunderstood your quibble. You're asking whether "Ferdinand the Holy Prince" would be better than the "Ferdinand the Saint Prince". Hm. Perhaps. My initial reaction is what it might gain in accuracy it loses in recognizability ("Santo" being homophynous to "Saint"). But let me think about it.

"Holy Prince" would certainly sound less odd, but my point really is that we should not be creating a new name in English. See for instance Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) - "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works, scholarly journals and major news sources). This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources." This Prince Ferdinand must be dealt with in several English-language reliable sources, but what do they call him? Even if the Catholic Encyclopedia is wrong, it is a starting point. Moonraker (talk) 08:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it is also an end point. He is such a localized figure in Portugal, there aren't many, if any, secondary works on Ferdinand or the Tangier campaign at all in English. You might find him mentioned in specialized biographies of Henry the Navigator (e.g. Russell, 2000), but Ferdinand has only a brief walk-on role there that they can just distinguish him as "Henry's youngest brother", or "John I's youngest son" and leave it that, or just give the Portuguese phrase "O Infante Santo" without translating it, or, if they need to refer to him again, just generic phrases like the "the captive" or "the martyr of Fez". The only other places he comes mentioned is in studies of Calderon's obscure play, where they might use the appelation the latter gave him in his title, El Principe Constante (the "Constant Prince"). But that's not used outside of Calderon. Frankly, this Wiki article is probably the most ever written about him in English. I am increasingly inclined to "the Holy Prince" instead of the "Saint Prince", since the only encyclopedia which gives him an entry - New International - translates "O Infante Santo" as "the Holy Prince". I don't think "Catholic Encyclopedia"'s entry should be paid any mind - it is too bald an error, and "Blessed" is a precise Catholic technical term they use in all their entries on beatified saints, not a common usage term found in secular works. Their error shouldn't be propagated here simply because Ferdinand doesn't happen to have more written about him elsewhere in English (although if the campaign being currently pushed by the Bishop of Leiria-Fatima succeeds in the Vatican and Benedict XVI finally beatifies him, then the Catholic Encyclopedia's "Blessed" might be retrospectively correct.) Walrasiad (talk) 11:45, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I have found some English-language sources which are generally supportive of "Holy Prince" - please see the talk page. Shall we sort this out there and then come back to the nomination? Moonraker (talk) 10:11, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed with your arguments and went ahead and moved to "Ferdinand the Holy Prince". I've tried to fix this DYK nom, but not sure I got everything right. Also would like to register my preference for ALT1 rather than the original hook (too boring). Walrasiad (talk) 12:58, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Article impressively expanded on 14 October to more than five times its previous length and is well cited throughout. Image is public domain. The Alt1 hook is interesting and cited; the link to a page of Chronica d'el rei D. Duarte didn't work for me, so in approving Alt1 the printed sources are accepted AGF. A small doubt is whether the word "yet" is a good conjunction in this hook, whoever moves this on might think about whether "and" would be better! Moonraker (talk) 20:08, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

NB the nominator's image seems to work at this size, but a detail of it might be preferred. We also have some other public domain images of Ferdinand, ~~such as the one added here~~. Moonraker (talk) 20:42, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Definitely NOT that image. That's NOT Ferdinand, that's St. Vincent. It is mislabeled. Somebody used the identifications in Albuquerque & Almeida (2000), a recent sensationalist book written by a pair of fringe amateurs that claimed they discovered via "secret codes" that the St. Vincent panels were not about St. Vincent, but actually depicted Ferdinand. That book that has been panned as fantasy by pretty much every serious historian and art historian out there. Walrasiad (talk) 21:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

My mistake. May I suggest that this correction is worth pursuing at Commons, where the name of the file identifies it as Ferdinand? Moonraker (talk) 21:37, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Ready to go, with "yet" or "and" (see above). Moonraker (talk) 08:48, 21 October 2012 (UTC)