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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:22, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

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Ernst Gutstein

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Created by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 10:31, 2 May 2019 (UTC).

  • This article is long enough. It was nominated a couple of days late, but never mind! The hook facts are cited inline, the article is neutral and I detected no copyright issues. A QPQ has been done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:16, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Due apologies, but in light of the recent discussion about "actors playing roles" hooks, and more saliently the discussion on the phrasing "created a role", I have pulled this from Prep. This is also because this is in the next prep to go on Queue; otherwise I would have put it in a later prep instead. A new hook is needed here, perhaps even one that involves his long career, but such a hook would need to avoid the "created a role" wording due to concerns that this sense does not make sense outside of opera circles, regardless of its ubiquity in opera. I see that the article is entirely about his roles: is there nothing available about his personal life and other aspects? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:50, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Another time sink. In the following, I avoid the professional wording, for simple English's sake:
ALT1: ... that Ernst Gutstein, a baritone who appeared as Faninal in New York and Dallas, sang the title role of Perlimplin in an opera's world premiere at the Schwetzingen Festival?
If you find things about his personal life, feel free to add. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:00, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
As an "actor plays role" hook (or in this case, an "actor who played role A played role B" hook, I doubt it would be allowed at this point. I'll propose two possible hooks below, but I'm not sure if they would appeal to a broad audience: Pinging reviewer Cwmhiraeth for their thoughts.
ALT2 ... that Ernst Gutstein, a baritone who had performed in several opera houses throughout Europe, was awarded the title of Kammersänger?
ALT3 ... that during his acting tenure at the Vienna State Opera, baritone Ernst Gutstein played almost 20 roles in 125 different performances?
As a layman, I think that ALT3 might have a broader appeal, but I'll leave the rest to another reviewer. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 15:17, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
ALT3 seems the best of these to me. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:20, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, there are hundreds of Kammersänger, and many who sang 20 roles (ore 100 even), but only one who sang the first Perlimplin. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:10, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
I honestly and frankly think that most readers don't know or care about this Perlimpin role. On the other hand, Kammersänger at least is a new term, and probably just obscure enough to make readers curious about what it is and may want to learn about it. Of course, right now our article on Kammersänger needs work, but as it's not the hook subject, it's not really a pressing issue. And while singing many roles in many performances is probably typical to an opera actor, most readers don't know about this, and it would be a good opportunity to inform others about this fact. Just because a fact is common knowledge to one niche doesn't mean it's well-known to broader audiences, or vice-versa. Never overestimate how familiar readership is with niches: instead realize and respect that they are not as well-informed as experts and are more likely to be interested in quirkyness than technicalities. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:56, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
Do me a favour, don't add "honestly" to what you say. - We turn to number of performances when it's minor roles not worth mentioning (and had two of those in 2019), but Perlimplin is the title role in an important 20th century work, at a location that was recently pictured. I tried to keep the hook short to please you, but obviously fail.
ALT4: ... that Ernst Gutstein, a baritone who appeared as Faninal in New York and Dallas, sang the title role of Perlimplin at the Schwetzingen Festival?
ALT5: ... that Ernst Gutstein, a baritone who appeared in New York and Dallas, sang the title role of Fortner's In seinem Garten liebt Don Perlimplin Belisa at the Schwetzingen Festival?
... to play with. I will not write any hook about just Kammersänger, ever, as utterly impersonal, - can that be respected? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
Sigh: you have been told many times to try writing a hook that does not involve the "Actor X played Role Y" or "Actor X who played Role Y played Role Z" formats. Insisting on that pattern will just lead to circular discussions and wasting of everyone's time, considering resistance to similar hooks. You're being guided to try something else, but instead you have resisted efforts to go in a different direction hookwise. @Yoninah, Cwmhiraeth, BlueMoonset, Jmar67, and Voceditenore: Can we have some assistance here on what to do or what kind of hook wording could reach compromise? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 14:27, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
  • As I mentioned in this recent thread, it's important to spell things out to readers who may not be familiar with what you're talking about. Gerda, you are writing classical music articles according to the criteria of WP:Classical music and WP:Opera. But here at DYK, you are writing a short hook intended to "grab" the casual reader in the brief span of time that he or she skims the main page. Your audience is much broader and far less knowledgeable about the subject than regular readers of classical music pages. To interest this broad readership, you have to zero in on the importance/uniqueness/quirkiness of the topic. For ALT4, you can either tell us that Perlimplin is an important 20th-century role, or you can tell us why it's important that he appeared at the Schwetzingen Festival. Otherwise, you are assuming far too much knowledge and interest on the part of the reader when you just trot out names and places. Yoninah (talk) 14:50, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
  • As much as I favor compromise, I don't see it coming here. Nothing occurs to me. This article is not DYK material. If the importance of Perlimplin cannot be explained, I would reject the nomination for lack of agreement on a hook. Jmar67 (talk) 17:23, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
  • We have only 200 chars, should only say what's in the article, and have a link to the opera which says that it's notable. It's after a notable play by Lorca, but that's not topic of the singer's article. Voce, I hate to ask for more of your precious time, but could you take a look at him? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Narutolovehinata5, Gerda, et al., I'm afraid that this probably isn't DYK material. I can't find anything unusual or outstanding about his career (in the DYK sense)—I looked pretty carefully. The problem with a lot of these German singers whose careers were at their height in the 1960s–1970s is that there aren't a lot of newspaper articles online from that period which might have revealed something interesting or unusual about their life and work, unless they were quite big stars. This is compounded by the fact that Gutstein sang mostly character roles, and the new operas he appeared in never really entered the repertoire, e.g. In seinem Garten liebt Don Perlimplin Belisa. The only possibilities I can think of are:
ALT6 ... that in 1955 the baritone Ernst Gutstein sang Ernesto in Haydn's Il mondo della luna, a role originally written for a castrato? (ref for Ernesto having been written for a castrato)
But that's kind of pushing it and if used would require this material being added to his article. Or less interestingly...
ALT7... that in 1977 the BBC broadcast a song recital by the Austrian baritone Ernst Gutstein? (ref)
For what it's worth, I agree very much with Yoninah's advice. Voceditenore (talk) 09:55, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
ALT6 is somewhat still possible as, while it focuses on a role, it adds an element that gives it depth which makes it not basically another "actor does role" hook. My concern is that it might be too technical or the terms (in particular castrato) maybe too obscure for readers to appreciate (although we do have the link to explain it). ALT7 on the other hand is safe but it's really dry and not eye-catchy. I'm not an expert in opera, so I'm not sure how common it is for a baritone to play castrato roles or vice-versa, so I don't think I'm the best person to decide if its okay or not. @Yoninah, Jmar67, and Khajidha: Would you be fine with ALT6? If not, we could always return to discussing ALT2 or ALT3; I understand Gerda doesn't like them, but there is no other option then it needs to be discussed if either are suitable options anyway. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:26, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Narutolovehinata5, you'd be surprised by Castrato. It averages over 600 page views a day and people who can't stand Justin Bieber periodically attempt to add him to its "List of notable castrati". Dear, oh, dear . Anyhow, since there are no castrati now, the role is usually sung by a woman but is sometimes transposed down to baritone for a man. Voceditenore (talk) 11:13, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
ALT6 is fairly sensational: a baritone singing what was originally a female-voice role. But that doesn't allude to an unusual ability on Gutstein's part. ALT7 is not particularly noteworthy. Jmar67 (talk) 11:29, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
I think castrato is well enough known for this hook to work. --Khajidha (talk) 11:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
  • And finally, one two last stabs...
ALT8 ... that both John Steane and Stanley Sadie praised Ernst Gutstein's interpretation of the impoverished aristocrat Count Waldner in Arabella? (ref for Sadie, ref for Steane)
OK, I now well and truly give up this quixotic effort. But Gerda, it would be good to add this to the article regardless of whether it's used for DYK. It gives a more human picture of him as a singer/actor. Steane wrote: Gutstein, who was also the Waldner in that recording, needs to be seen as well as heard. The wily humour and dignity, four-fifths of which are an exercise in the art of impoverished gentility, the remainder a remnant of the genuine article, distinguish this portrayal from the usual vulgarian... Sadie wrote: The Waldner of Ernst Gutstein is a well-judged impersonation, genial, sophisticated yet with an essential underlying innocence. Voceditenore (talk) 11:44, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
ALT9 ... that the critic from El Ciervo described Ernst Gutstein's interpretation of La Roche in Capriccio as "unforgettable" and showing "absolute mastery of the role"? (ref). The original quote in Spanish: El veterano Ernst Gutstein fue un La Roche de antología, dueño absoluto del papel. Again, Gerda, this should be added to the article irrespective of DYK to give a more rounded view of him as an artist. Voceditenore (talk) 12:04, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Thanks to all, while I was out as a tourist. Will add to the article, but not right now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:22, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
ALT6 is great. Castrato looks so much like "castrate" that it will attract a lot of views. I think we should go with this hook. Yoninah (talk) 12:32, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
  • So I guess everyone is fine with ALT6 now? If so, I'll give it the tick. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:26, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
    ALT6 works. Thanks to Voce for the (sadly unfree) image. I don't believe that Haydn's work entered the repertoire, but let's show it because of that, making the unknown known. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:10, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Okay, there seems to be agreement, after much discussion, that ALT6 will be the hook moving forward. Giving it the tick now. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 22:57, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
When promoting this, I have changed the year in ALT6 to 1959, the year in the article and source. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:22, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
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