Template:Did you know nominations/En blanc et noir

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:33, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

En blanc et noir

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Manuscript of En blanc et noir

... that the central movement of En blanc et noir (manuscript page pictured), a 1915 composition for two pianos by Claude Debussy, is dedicated to a victim of the World War and quotes Luther's "Ein feste Burg"? Source: [1]

Reviewed: ~~to come~~
Comment: Sorry, we are a bit late, again. I wanted to expand this on 31 October, because of the Luther quote. Chuckstreet added some on 29 October, which brought us to a 5* expansion that day, - and no way I could multiply that 5*. I kow that the image shows no detail, but - being black and white - is a cute illustration to a title that translates to "In black and white". Please no later than 30 November, would be good on any of the remembrance days, such as 17 November. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:16, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

5x expanded by Gerda Arendt (talk) and Chuckstreet (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 21:16, 7 November 2019 (UTC).

The date of composition is 1915 not 2015. Also translation is "In White and Black", referring to piano keys and emphasis in the different movements (1st mvt is white, 2nd black, 3rd both: thus grey), not "In Black and White" which has a different (monochromatic) meaning. It's shortened from the original full title "Caprices in White and Black". Chuckstreet (talk) 21:55, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, fixed the year, sorry about that. The other was also wrong, but doesn't matter too much as not in the hook, - you are right there as well. More expansion would be possible, and plenty of sources there, but I was just told that another article is too short. Feel free ... - Help with French quotations would also be nice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:03, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I reviewed now, Template:Did you know nominations/Susie Owens. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:39, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

This was a bit late (some 2 days and 13 hours), and the 5x expansion a bit tight (it drops below the mark after my recent edits, though that isn't held against the nom), but DYK rules have never been hard-and-fast, so I'm letting this pass. Some issues which I've noted on the talk page, but nothing policy-breaking. QPQ done. Facts check out, but the hook is quite long. Is the "composition for two pianos" description necessary? Also, readers might associate the term "victim" more with civilians than someone who died fighting. "World War" is ambiguous (it's implied from the year 1915, but isn't initially obvious). And readers might not be familiar with whom the unqualified "Luther" refers to. What do you think of my below suggestion? I'll leave the image (I've shortened the caption) to the choice of the promoter. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:10, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
- Alt1: ... that the central movement of Claude Debussy's En blanc et noir (manuscript page pictured) is dedicated to a friend who died in World War I and quotes Martin Luther's "Ein feste Burg"?
- PS Actually, with the modified hook, another citation is needed to support the description of Charlot as a friend. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:17, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the offer, but that reads as if the friend who died quotes Luther. I think Luther is known well enough to not waste space for his first name, and whoever doesn't know which Luther can find a link in the hymn article. I believe "2 pianos" should be mentioned, rare for Debussy! The war was called "The Great War", and they didn't know then (at dedication time) about a second, so World War I is a bit a-historic, and would need no link. How about "fell" instead of "died"? As you shouldn't write a hook - or could not review - (but please supply that citation) here's the next:

ALT2: ... that Claude Debussy dedicated the central movement of En blanc et noir for two pianos (manuscript page pictured) in 1915 to a friend who fell in the World War, and quoted Luther's "Ein feste Burg"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:27, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Seems okay, but how about "Great War" instead of just "World War", then? Regarding the friend part, do any of the German sources already in the article readily support the fact? (Also, I just noticed that the link in the Edition Gorz source appears to be broken. It points to the Die Zeit article.) --Paul_012 (talk) 21:30, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I can look but not now - bedtime. - Not sure about Great War, don't remember if it's in the article. I believe that 1915 and World War should be clear. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Jmar67 has reworded the article; it no longer says Charlot was a friend. The hook needs rephrasing. Maybe "casualty" can be substituted for "victim" in the original wording? --Paul_012 (talk) 15:18, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

How about his name? I asked if we can have a stub, there's a bit (unsourced) in Dutch. He was a composer and a lieutenant, but that's too much for a hook about the piece.

ALT3: ... that in the centre of En blanc et noir for two pianos, Claude Debussy quoted Luther's "Ein feste Burg" in 1915, and dedicated the movement to Jacques Charlot, who fell in the World War? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:17, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Apparently Ravel dedicated the first movement of his Tombeau to him, and was closer to Charlot than Debussy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:17, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

It's unclear what the "in 1915" is referring to. What about "... that in the middle of his 1915 En blanc et noir for two pianos..."? (I've added a comma after Charlot's name.) --Paul_012 (talk) 17:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I wanted the year closer to the War but we can't have it all. For me, "centre" hints at "centrepiece", while middle semms something between more important things, but may be wrong.

ALT4: ... that in the centre of En blanc et noir for two pianos, Claude Debussy quoted Luther's "Ein feste Burg", and dedicated the 1915 movement to Jacques Charlot, who fell in the World War? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:05, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Fine with me.

Approved with ALT4. Image is good if the promoter thinks it works. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:13, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

(←) Have not been following this, but ALT4 has problems with centre, movement, and World War.

ALT5: ... that in En blanc et noir for two pianos, Claude Debussy quoted Luther's hymn "Ein feste Burg" and dedicated the work in part to Jacques Charlot, who fell in World War I? Jmar67 (talk) 06:48, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I have problems with no year (could have been written decades later if somebody doesn't know when Debussy lived), miss "centre" which could be "central movement" needing a strange " partly", and for the war, see above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Just in case, ALT5 is also

. But noting Gerda Arendt's concerns, ~~ALT4 should probably be preferred.~~ --Paul_012 (talk) 20:01, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

(ALT4) "1915 movement" makes no sense. The piece was written with 3 movements. Should be "dedicated the second movement..." And World War is at least ambiguous since there were two. Jmar67 (talk) 21:57, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Noting both parties' concerns, these are stylistic issues which shouldn't keep the article from DYK. Per the rules, "A hook is subject without notice to copy-editing as it moves to the main page." I'll leave it to the promoter's judgment. --Paul_012 (talk) 21:12, 25 November 2019 (UTC)