Template:Did you know nominations/Elena Tsallagova
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 13:02, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
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Elena Tsallagova
... that Elena Tsallagova, an operatic soprano born in Vladikavkaz, appeared as Janáček's Cunning Little Vixen at the Paris Opera?Source: several- Reviewed: Hamdallaye, Niger
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 19:38, 17 February 2022 (UTC).
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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Hook eligibility:
- Cited:
- Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith - Interesting:
- x
| QPQ: Done. |
Overall: 
The article meets requirements, but the cultural references are obscure, so I do not see how it is interesting to a broad audience. What does the place of birth even have to do with the professional career anwyay? (t · c) buidhe 02:03, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for looking. It's difficult - at least for me - to summarize a career in one short sentence, but I keep trying. (although I'm often told I should pick just a little bit). In defense: I think the hook has two items to just make our broad readership curious: the name of the birth place, and the title of the opera. She was about to remain in St. Petersburg, but a specific singer taught her more and paved her way to an international career. I have been told that not everybody would know stars of a former era such as Ileana Cotrubas, so avoided to refer to her, leaving just the birth place to make curious in "how come she got from that strange place to Paris?" - I am open to better suggestions. I considered the award-winning DVD, but found it less interesting. I considered the reviews now when she performed the same role 14 years later, but found one too flowery and personal, and the other too short, saying just "fiery voice". Those things also loose in translation, even the ".. was interesting when she only looked around a corner". - Perhaps you could help me to a hook for Peter Merseburger. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:39, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
- Hooks don't need to summarize the career of a person in one sentence, they simply need to say something interesting about a person. Trying to summarize a person's career in a single hook rarely ever works out and I'd suggest moving away from that idea. Looking at the article, I can see two possible hook options: one is about her being a soprano but originally wanting to be a ballet dancer (which to me sounds unusual), and the other could be about her winning a Rachmaninov competition while she was studying (admittedly I have no idea how much of a big deal said competition was, but if it was, a hook based on that could work). Actually, let me give the ballet angle a shot below (also pinging Buidhe to check it).
- ALT1
... that Russian operatic soprano Elena Tsallagova originally trained to be a ballet dancer?Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:28, 23 February 2022 (UTC)- Hooks don't need ... - but saying nothing about what she really does, and only pointing at a past, is not my way. You can do that for your hooks. You can also try to find something in her bio.
ALT2: ... that Elena Tsallagova appeared as Janáček's Cunning Vixen at the Paris Opera in 2008, and at the Bavarian State Opera in 2022?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:45, 23 February 2022 (UTC)- That hook doesn't address Buidhe's concerns about the cultural references being obscure. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:56, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- How about letting buidhe say that or not? - When I introduce someone at a gathering, would I say: "This is N. who trained to be a metal worker when he was young."? No, I wouldn't. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:08, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think ALT2 addresses the concerns I expressed. ALT1 is better, but borderline in my opinion. (t · c) buidhe 19:26, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see how Paris Opera would need cultural context. The opera name is cute and unusual and good to create curiosity, no? The fact that she had already a long international career shows well. Storye book, what do you think? - Here she is young, enjoy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:41, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- To be honest, most people probably wouldn't even notice the name of the opera, they'd just see the hook as "Person X played role Y in opera Z". And in most cases, a hook that simply goes "Person plays role" doesn't make for a broadly interesting hook especially when the work they performed for is relatively obscure. It may be a better idea to just move away from this whole "person plays role" format since such hooks tend to be uninteresting to those who are unfamiliar with the concepts or people being discussed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:08, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I want to interest readers in that opera, with a cute title that should make curious. She has the title role, so this is not even a "role"-hook. We could say it's one of her signature roles, but to give a precise time and location offers much more than "role", - otherwise she could have done it 80 years ago. I'd rather leave DYK - said before - than saying something unsubstantial about my subjects, something that doesn't show why we have an article. Perhaps try to understand that for those who know a bit, in opera a role signifies voice type (lyric soprano - dramatic soprano - spinto soprano - coloratura soprano etc), also here that she dares less frequently performed repertoire. - I had three Recent death articles in 3 days, - there's life besides DYK. Ukraine pictured on my talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:15, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: You asked for my opinion of the hook. I listened to her in Ah Calisto on YouTube. I think she is not fitted for music of that era, where you need to sing like the instruments more, and warble less. But the acting does stand out. So if it were up to me, I would like to see a comment about the quality of her acting, as you suggested above.
- ALT3: ... that operatic soprano Elena Tsallagova is a natural actress who can make even looking around a corner interesting? Storye book (talk) 12:11, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- The new hook sounds pretty good (I've relabeled it ALT3 since there's already an ALT1 and an ALT2). However, a possible option could be to mention that it was a review that said the corner thing, although it could also be argued that the current hook wording works as a quirky hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:33, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I want to interest readers in that opera, with a cute title that should make curious. She has the title role, so this is not even a "role"-hook. We could say it's one of her signature roles, but to give a precise time and location offers much more than "role", - otherwise she could have done it 80 years ago. I'd rather leave DYK - said before - than saying something unsubstantial about my subjects, something that doesn't show why we have an article. Perhaps try to understand that for those who know a bit, in opera a role signifies voice type (lyric soprano - dramatic soprano - spinto soprano - coloratura soprano etc), also here that she dares less frequently performed repertoire. - I had three Recent death articles in 3 days, - there's life besides DYK. Ukraine pictured on my talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:15, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- To be honest, most people probably wouldn't even notice the name of the opera, they'd just see the hook as "Person X played role Y in opera Z". And in most cases, a hook that simply goes "Person plays role" doesn't make for a broadly interesting hook especially when the work they performed for is relatively obscure. It may be a better idea to just move away from this whole "person plays role" format since such hooks tend to be uninteresting to those who are unfamiliar with the concepts or people being discussed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:08, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see how Paris Opera would need cultural context. The opera name is cute and unusual and good to create curiosity, no? The fact that she had already a long international career shows well. Storye book, what do you think? - Here she is young, enjoy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:41, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think ALT2 addresses the concerns I expressed. ALT1 is better, but borderline in my opinion. (t · c) buidhe 19:26, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- How about letting buidhe say that or not? - When I introduce someone at a gathering, would I say: "This is N. who trained to be a metal worker when he was young."? No, I wouldn't. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:08, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- That hook doesn't address Buidhe's concerns about the cultural references being obscure. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:56, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
- ALT1
- Hooks don't need to summarize the career of a person in one sentence, they simply need to say something interesting about a person. Trying to summarize a person's career in a single hook rarely ever works out and I'd suggest moving away from that idea. Looking at the article, I can see two possible hook options: one is about her being a soprano but originally wanting to be a ballet dancer (which to me sounds unusual), and the other could be about her winning a Rachmaninov competition while she was studying (admittedly I have no idea how much of a big deal said competition was, but if it was, a hook based on that could work). Actually, let me give the ballet angle a shot below (also pinging Buidhe to check it).
ALT4: ... that critic Markus Thiel described the operatic soprano Elena Tsallagova as a natural actress who can make even looking around a corner interesting?- ALT5: ... that operatic soprano Elena Tsallagova has been described as a natural actress who can make even looking around a corner interesting?
- Thank you, Narutolovehinata5. Here are ALTs 4 and 5 for you as per your suggestion, but I don't think they work - it sounds clunky to me. Storye book (talk) 15:17, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for the new hooks. I think ALT5 is okay and arguably more accurate and precise than ALT3 (even though I have a preference for ALT3 myself). I've struck ALT4 because I find the mention of the critic's name unnecessary since he doesn't even have an article and also doesn't really add to the hook's hooikiness. Given that ALT3/ALT5 are the best options so far and more interesting than ALT1 or ALT0/ALT2 I'm going ahead and approving ALT3/ALT5 and striking the other options. I am assuming good faith for the German source. The rest of the review is per Buidhe. Good to go. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:10, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
