Template:Did you know nominations/Durham (poem)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:50, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
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Durham (poem)
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1610 map of Durham
... that Durham, a poem praising the city (map pictured) and its saints' relics, has been described as "the last extant poem written in traditional alliterative Old English metrical verse"?Source of the quotation: "Durham, composed between 1104 and 1109, is the last extant poem written in traditional alliterative Old English metrical verse." (Grossi 2012); & "A modest fragment of twenty lines, devoted to praise of the city of Durham ... The scope of the poem is limited to a few topics: the grandeur of the city, its fortunate location, and the saints and holy relics for which it is celebrated." (Schlauch 1941)
Illustration of Cuthbert's incorrupt body
- ALT2:
... that Durham, which possibly commemorates the translation of St Cuthbert (pictured) to Durham Cathedral in 1104, might be the earliest English occasional poem?Source: "The late Old English poem Durham may be the first example in English of the honorable, if minor, genre of the occasional poem. Durham was composed in conjunction with an event which caused a great stir when it took place at Durham in 1104. This was the occasion of the Translation of the incorrupt body of St. Cuthbert into the shrine prepared for it in the apse of the great Norman cathedral which was at that moment under construction on the high bluff above the river Wear." (Kendall 1988)
- ALT2:
- Reviewed: Shepard tables
- Comment: Moved into mainspace on 7 February after languishing for years in my userspace; I'm still working on the details but it should be suitable for review now. Sources mostly need JSTOR/Project Muse access, but [1] covers the basics. There are lots of suitable images; I have suggested a second below.
Moved to mainspace by Espresso Addict (talk). Self-nominated at 03:39, 13 February 2019 (UTC).
Interesting facts, on fine sources, accepting those I can't see AGF, no copyvio obvious. I moved the second image up, but think you don't see enough in small size. The map is showing fine, and is licensed. Espresso Addict, sorry, I think the hooks are too complex for the ordinary audience of our Main page. What do you think of a simple- ALT3:
... that "Durham" is a poem in Old English metrical verse, praising the city (map pictured) and its saints' relics, especially Cuthbert's? - Did you noticed that I wrote "Durham" as I know poems are marked: in quotation marks, not italic, see here. Please check that. I think too many readers will think thy know what a translation is and not find out, - so ALT2 is potentially confusing, - also I'm no friend of "might be" hooks. - Thank you for this detailed gem of an article! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:39, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for your speedy review, Gerda Arendt!
- The reason I included the second (near contemporary) illo is that I can see the map not being selected on grounds it is 1610, a whole era later than 1104. (I couldn't find an earlier map, and it does illustrate the first part of the poem very neatly.) I agree the weird new-to-me pixel widths do seem to make the Cuthbert one less than ideally clear.
- I should have wikilinked translation, as it is in the lead, but it could be rephrased, possibly over a piped link, eg '...the installation of St Cuthbert in...'
- I don't know about the quotation marks: in the lit, the poem is universally referred to as Durham not "Durham" (which to my eye is American punctuation) nor 'Durham'. I wonder if the usual style for modern-era short poems, such as the example you cite, is different? See, for example, The Owl and the Nightingale, thought I note other poems in the Old English category are mixed, often within the same article (which suggests to me a dichotomy between our style guide & the practice in the field). Whatever, I think the hook should match the article, so I'd need to change the article to not match any of its many authoritative sources. (One of the reasons I never bother with FA is that I disagree with the MoS on a number of points.)
- Tastes differ, obviously, but I don't like your suggestion (Alt 3) at all, sorry! It's not very hooky, 'metrical verse' just means 'verse' (I don't know why the original quotation has it!?), and a lot of the crit that I haven't yet assimilated into the article (introduced briefly at the end) focuses on the importance of the poem relating to its inclusion of Bede, rather than Cuthbert. The problem with all the 'might be's is that very little seems truly certain about this poem. How about:
- Alt 4a:
... that Durham, which praises the city (map pictured) and its saints' relics, is often considered the last poem in the Old English alliterative tradition?[151 characters] - or even Alt 4b:
... that Durham, which praises the city (map pictured) and its saints' relics, is often considered the last traditional Old English poem?[133 characters]
- Alt 4a:
- I chickened out of suggesting something along those lines, because it's so hard to source properly. But in addition to the sources already in the article, there's also, for example, the chapter by Seth Lerer (ref 15): 'While it has, in fact, been included in the Anglo-Saxon Poetic Records (as the ‘latest of the extant Anglo-Saxon poems in the regular alliterative meter’)...' as well as the book by Nicholas Howe (ref 17): '...in Durham, a poem composed so late in the Anglo-Saxon period that one almost hesitates to use this term to date it. In Old English meter and alliteration...' That's just the ones I happen to have open on my desktop right now -- I'll see what else I can muster. Cheers, Espresso Addict (talk) 00:04, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for what others would present as a new article ;) - Style of presenting poems: - I have been subjected to house style once (vs. general style), I hope it will not happen to you. - Hook: it's not length what strikes me as "not for the DYK section" but that the specific interest in medieval poetry is something you can't expect from the average reader. Look for my name on this page, and you'll see examples of telling me the same about opera singers. The long quote in the hook and ALT1, exceptional and precise as it is, might be boring for them. How about something along the line "late Old English, early occasional"? And perhaps link relics? Talking about saints: happy Valentine ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:08, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: I've just received some long papers from the nice guys at the Resource Exchange, and I think there might be something about riddles that might pique the interest of the average reader. Will get back to the problem when I've had some sleep -- happy Valentine's Day to you too! Espresso Addict (talk) 09:38, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, riddles sounds good, and no rush. Eventually you can perhaps explain what makes Durham a city (vs. a town), and ponder a translation to modern English, for us foreigners who may miss too much without it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:55, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: I'm getting bogged down rather and might need to take a break from working on this complex article for fear of my head/wrists exploding. What about something like:
- ALT5:
... that although Durham is considered a rare Old English example of a work in praise of a town, the poem never names the town (map pictured) it is said to praise?[163 chars] - I'm happy to type in the source quotations if you think this is a goer, interest wise, but they don't cut & paste out, & I've got a carpal tunnel flare up at the moment, so I won't bother if you dislike it.
- If this is no good, then I have several other ideas but all need more substantive work on the article.
- Re your other notes: I don't actually know why the sources mainly call Norman Durham a city. There doesn't seem to be a formal definition of the word between the Romans leaving and the Tudor period. It did have a castle by that date (which I will add to the article as soon as I relocate my source). I'm happy to go with town in the hook though. I'd love to put in a translation but I don't read OE myself (and anyway that would be OR) and all of the many translations I've found will be in copyright for decades. Espresso Addict (talk) 06:57, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
- Firstly, best wishes for recovery, take a break, absolutely! Don't type a source, I accept in good faith. Who named the poem Durham then? Can we say that it is in praise oif a town (for simple me, a - modern - city is something with 100,000 inhabitants) but only context shows that it's Durham? - Translation is no OR, look at Reger Requiem where it was demanded, and a hard part of the article to write. No translation of the whole thing perhaps, but for someone like me, it could be Chinese, and I'd understand just as little ;) - Remember: take the time you need. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:30, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
- Gerda, by convention anywhere with a cathedral is a cathedral city in English. Durham may not have been large by modern standards at this time, but with York, it was much the largest place in Northern England. Plus the hook source calls it a city, as you will find all others do if you look. It would be an actual error to call Durham a town. Please get on with the review, rather than straining to find OR objections, and create ALT hooks. Johnbod (talk) 15:23, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for explaining. No rush, Espresso Addict will come up with ALTs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Johnbod and Gerda Arendt: Aie, I've actually changed 'city' to 'town' throughout the article, except in the lead where it feels to refer to the modern Durham, and my senses rebelled. 'City' is preferred in the sources, but 'town' is used in some places and the poem itself seems to use 'burch' which no-one agrees on what it means.
- I fear I'm struggling to come up with sexy alternative hooks that won't make the folk at Errors get out their Nitpicking Pitchforks. I like the latest traditional OE poem approach because that is what most of the sources discuss. Espresso Addict (talk) 21:08, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you! Do you mean I could approve ALT5 as it is? And do you want that? I have an article approved that I know is not as ready as I want it to be, - if you say we should wait I will ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:19, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Re Johnbod's comment, we should probably go back to the city wording because it's usual for encomia urbi; so can you approve:
- ALT5a: ... that although Durham is considered a rare Old English example of a work in praise of a city, the poem never names the city (map pictured) it is said to praise?
- ...which I'm completely happy with. Let's get this show on the road :) Espresso Addict (talk) 22:15, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
have a good ride! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you! Do you mean I could approve ALT5 as it is? And do you want that? I have an article approved that I know is not as ready as I want it to be, - if you say we should wait I will ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:19, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for explaining. No rush, Espresso Addict will come up with ALTs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Gerda, by convention anywhere with a cathedral is a cathedral city in English. Durham may not have been large by modern standards at this time, but with York, it was much the largest place in Northern England. Plus the hook source calls it a city, as you will find all others do if you look. It would be an actual error to call Durham a town. Please get on with the review, rather than straining to find OR objections, and create ALT hooks. Johnbod (talk) 15:23, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
- Firstly, best wishes for recovery, take a break, absolutely! Don't type a source, I accept in good faith. Who named the poem Durham then? Can we say that it is in praise oif a town (for simple me, a - modern - city is something with 100,000 inhabitants) but only context shows that it's Durham? - Translation is no OR, look at Reger Requiem where it was demanded, and a hard part of the article to write. No translation of the whole thing perhaps, but for someone like me, it could be Chinese, and I'd understand just as little ;) - Remember: take the time you need. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:30, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, riddles sounds good, and no rush. Eventually you can perhaps explain what makes Durham a city (vs. a town), and ponder a translation to modern English, for us foreigners who may miss too much without it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:55, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: I've just received some long papers from the nice guys at the Resource Exchange, and I think there might be something about riddles that might pique the interest of the average reader. Will get back to the problem when I've had some sleep -- happy Valentine's Day to you too! Espresso Addict (talk) 09:38, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for what others would present as a new article ;) - Style of presenting poems: - I have been subjected to house style once (vs. general style), I hope it will not happen to you. - Hook: it's not length what strikes me as "not for the DYK section" but that the specific interest in medieval poetry is something you can't expect from the average reader. Look for my name on this page, and you'll see examples of telling me the same about opera singers. The long quote in the hook and ALT1, exceptional and precise as it is, might be boring for them. How about something along the line "late Old English, early occasional"? And perhaps link relics? Talking about saints: happy Valentine ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:08, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
