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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BorgQueen (talk) 05:31, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Drama Shower

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Created by Lullabying (talk). Self-nominated at 21:29, 24 December 2022 (UTC).

  • The article is new enough and long enough, and is both properly sourced and free from close paraphrasing. A QPQ has been done. However, both hooks seem to require specialist knowledge and don't seem likely to intrigue people who are unfamiliar with Kadokawa or Japanese television. Can a different direction be proposed here? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:31, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
I don't think that really solves my concerns either. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 18:40, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
How about a hook like this?
Cielquiparle (talk) 22:50, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
@Lullabying: I do think it would be better to do two hooks at once in this case, because otherwise it's DYK déjà vu...! How about you go ahead and work on the second article, and I'll go review someone else's DYK and donate the extra QPQ...? Cielquiparle (talk) 01:12, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
I think the only way ALT3 would work is if it was a double hook because otherwise it's a rather pedestrian proposal interestingness-wise. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:20, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: Pedestrian to you, perhaps, but how often do you see the words "Mr. Unlucky Has No Choice But to Kiss!" on the main page of Wikipedia? And also, the way ALT3 is written, the phrase "Drama Shower" takes on a whole new meaning. But yes, it is better if you can click to find out what is up with Mr. Unlucky. Anyway @Lullabying: I've now finished a QPQ which I can donate to you, so let me know if you do decide to write the other article and want to use it! Cielquiparle (talk) 01:46, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
@Lullabying: Wow, that was fast! I have added a QPQ for you above, and altered ALT3 to bold and embed a link to the new page. @Narutolovehinata5: Could you please proceed with the second review? Cielquiparle (talk) 09:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Mr. Unlucky is not yet linked in Drama Shower's article, and the hook fact there is lacking a referencing footnote (only an explanatory one). I'll approve ALT3 once that's done. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:10, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Actually the citation issue is yet to be fixed since Drama Shower's discussion of the series still lacks a referencing footnote. Upon further reflection, I don't actually think ALT3 is that much good of a hook either since it's too reliant on the name of the show despite ostensibly being about Drama Shower. This is what I'd suggest: would it be possible to propose some solo hooks about Mr. Unlucky alone that don't involve Drama Shower? I checked Mr. Unlucky's article and I think there are parts there that may have more potential for hooks than Drama Shower's article. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:44, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
  • This is the nomination page for Drama Shower, though, and I do feel that there is potential for a hook from that article as well, and I personally don't feel it's right to withdraw the nomination based on your explanation. lullabying (talk) 05:48, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
I'm just no longer seeing any path forward for a hook about Drama Shower at this point, what I do see is potential for Mr. Unlucky. One possibility could be to close this nomination and start a new one for Mr. Unlucky, or we could just use this page, but in any case I don't think we can get a suitable hook out of Drama Shower anymore. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:28, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
  • I added the citation next to the line instead of just as the footnote. Can you elaborate by what you mean by a "suitable" hook? lullabying (talk) 10:30, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
  • I'm referring to WP:DYKCRIT, specifically this criterion: The hook should include a definite fact that is mentioned in the article and likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest. The way I see it, I don't think any of the proposed options regarding Drama Shower meet this criterion; however, I can see hooks solely about Mr. Unlucky potentially meeting it based my checking of that article. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:49, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Hello, unfortunately, I don't think you're being very fair to the hooks for this article and not giving this nomination a chance. Similar hooks to ALT3 have made it to DYK, such as the one I did for Template:Did you know nominations/Kakafukaka; I'm not sure why this one couldn't. lullabying (talk) 21:02, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
WP:OSE is not really a valid argument on DYK, and that particular nomination was done prior to the recent change to the DYK criterion implementing the need to intrigue non-specialist audiences. I've been trying to give the nomination a fair chance and in fact had I seen suitable suggestions I would have either brought them up or would have proposed hooks about them myself. I just simply don't think Drama Shower is going to work out for DYK, but that doesn't mean that Mr. Unlucky doesn't have a future on DYK and in fact I'd highly suggest you nominate it separately. For what it's worth, had I been the one to review Kakafukaka's nomination, I would have probably said something similar to what I've said here (meaning I would have declined that particular hook wording too). I should also note that even the reviewer for that nomination thought there were other more suitable options for a hook instead. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:19, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
  • I'm no longer seeing a path forward for this nomination so I'm now marking it for closure, without prejudice against a separate nomination for Mr. Unlucky being done. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:21, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Is it possible to get another person to review this? lullabying (talk) 02:39, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Alright. Asking for a second opinion on the suitability of the article and hooks. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:43, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
I would also like to request another reviewer to consider ALT3 in particular, which could be a candidate for the "quirky" slot! Cielquiparle (talk) 17:11, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
lullabying, i think alt3 has potential, but it doesn't explain to me what drama shower actually is. also, i feel that the hook should have a different focus because i doubt many main page readers would be excited about the order in which the dramas were first aired. would this reworking be acceptable to you?

alt3a: ... that one-year-only programming block Drama Shower exclusively broadcasts live-action boys' love dramas, such as Mr. Unlucky Has No Choice But to Kiss!?

i think "and Senpai, This Can't Be Love!" could also be added to the hook if you think it is appropriate to do so, regardless of whether or not there was an article for the series. (by the way, is the title of episode 7 missing a "But to"?) dying (talk) 11:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC) [struck alt3a. dying (talk) 14:08, 22 January 2023 (UTC)]
I'm not sure I would approve of either ALT3 or ALT3a. To the extent that either pass the interestingness criterion (which I'm not sure about), it seems like advertising if we all we say is "limited-time TV programming block has shows!". theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 02:01, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
yeah, it was really hard trying to avoid sounding like an advertisement. what i actually found interesting was that yaoi has become popular enough that there is now a dedicated programming block for live-action yaoi dramas. here's a reworking that focuses on that.

alt3b: ... that boys' love series, such as Mr. Unlucky Has No Choice But to Kiss!, are being aired on late-night programming block Drama Shower as live-action dramas?

dying (talk) 09:21, 18 January 2023 (UTC) [struck alt3b. dying (talk) 14:08, 22 January 2023 (UTC)]
To be honest, ALT3b sounds even more like an advertisement than the earlier proposal. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:03, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
haha, oh wow. i guess i'm not good at this at all. dying (talk) 11:29, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Me again, now with ALT3c, saying quirky is quirky and usually relies on plays on words, and that as I recall we recently ran "both Toyota and Pizza Hut have had commercials saying "Sheesh!"?"
this is brilliant, Cielquiparle! i don't even care that it doesn't explain what drama shower is; in fact, i think not explaining it helps its quirkiness. i think the "-?" template could be used for the ending punctuation, but otherwise, the hook seems pretty solid. alternatively, the '?' could be italicized so that the "!?" could represent an interrobang. (i have just discovered that the latter option appears to still technically conform to f3.) also, although the hook may seem like a description of a fictional world at first glance, it actually does "describe the real world in some way", satisfying c6.
has there been a full review of the second article yet? if not, i can provide one and, assuming i encounter no serious issues and lullabying is happy with alt3c, this should be good to go. dying (talk) 11:29, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Sounds good to me! Thank you! lullabying (talk) 20:08, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
    • Narutolovehinata5, it looks like you may have been in the middle of evaluating the second article for a full review. if so, did you want to complete it? i don't want to accidentally step on your toes. dying (talk) 20:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
  • For what it's worth; Mr. Unclean does meet the technical DYK requirements. However, in terms of hook intriguingness, I'm still not a fan of ALT3c (it seems misleading to me, and while I get that quirky hooks aren't always intended to be spot-on, it does seem like a bit of a lie in my opinion). I would suggest that solo hooks about Mr. Unlucky be proposed first. I may be open to ALT3c if a solo hook about Mr. Unlucky is simply not possible or if there are no good options, but I'd at least like to see some possible solo proposals about Mr. Unlucky first before I give my blessing to some variant of ALT3c (I'm not a fan of the current wording so I think it will have to be revised anyway). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 21:08, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
    i am admittedly still pretty new at dyk, but my previous understanding was that second opinions are intended to be dispositive.
    i am having difficulty trying to figure out how you are interpreting the hook if you think it is misleading; to me, it appears to be accurate, both under the real-world and the fictional-world interpretations. the drama was the first to be broadcast on drama shower, so it is an accurate statement in the real world. also, although i haven't personally read the manga or watched the drama, the titles of the successive episodes strongly suggest that mr. unlucky eventually has sex, which seems rather unusual if mr. unlucky had not kissed. (by the way, this site, in a summary of the first episode, uses what appears to be a photo of the actors playing the two main characters kissing, so i assume that mr. unlucky does in fact kiss during the first episode.)
    how are you finding the hook to be misleading? dying (talk) 05:46, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
The hook goes that at the start of Drama Shower, Mr. Unlucky Has No Choice But to Kiss!?. Which is technically true but is also not exactly right either. Technically speaking, the second part is referring to the title of the series, not exactly that "Mr. Unlucky has no choice but to kiss". The fact isn't wrong, it's just worded in a way that it could interpreted to be slightly misleading. And I understand it's intended for the quirky slot, but from experience, hooks intended for quirky slots have sometimes been prone to inaccuracies, and that's something that I'd really want to avoid. I realize that this is being slightly pedantic, but given that it can be argued that the hook is either misleading or vague (in what context is the "No choice but to kiss" aspect at the "start" of Drama Shower?), I'd like to first hear some alternative suggestions first before saying we can go with it. Dying: Do you perhaps have any suggestions in mind that focus solely on Mr. Unlucky without mentioning Drama Shower? I'm still not convinced that Drama Shower is suitable for DYK. I repeat: I'm not totally opposed to ALT3c and I can accept it if there are absolutely no alternatives, but I'd really like to see some alternative options first before we decide to go with it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:03, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
  • Okay, in the interest of the nomination moving forward, I'm willing to offer a compromise here. I would still suggest that solo hooks about Mr. Unlucky be proposed. I just checked the article again and I noticed some possible options here (for example, it being selected as the first series despite not being a Kadokawa work, or that it was considered a good introduction tot he genre). However, I am vacating my earlier opposition to ALT3c and am willing to approve it provided that solo hooks also be issued as alternatives should the double hook not work out for whatever reason. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:09, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
    Narutolovehinata5, had alt3c been worded in such a way that it could be misinterpreted as something else that is inaccurate, i would have agreed with you. one great thing about alt3c is that it can be misinterpreted as something else that is also accurate, so i do not think it is misleading. is your concern based upon the fact that it has two interpretations?
    i am admittedly also confused about your point regarding "the 'start' of Drama Shower". i would have assumed that being the first series to air on the programming block would have been sufficient for the description "start of Drama Shower" to be accurate, and in this case, not only is mr. unlucky has no choice but to kiss! the first series, but it appears that mr. unlucky has no choice but to kiss in the first episode. i don't think the kiss has to be the opening shot of the first episode to avoid being misleading. alternatively, requiring a more clear definition of "start" in order to not be considered vague seems a bit excessive for a 200-character hook, let alone a quirky one.
    i could probably come up with some hooks without mentioning drama shower, but i don't have anything good in mind, and i don't think i could outdo Cielquiparle's suggestion anyway, so i feel that trying to do so would be an exercise in futility. besides, as evidenced by my previous suggestions on this nomination, all i seem to be coming up with on this subject are advertisements. (now that i am looking back at alt3a and alt3b, they are rather embarrassing compared to alt3c, so i am striking them.)
    i am assuming that no one has suggested another hook in the past three days because no one came up with anything better than alt3c, but if anyone can come up with a better hook, i'd be interested. one of the options you suggested had been previously proposed as alt4, so you can just approve that too if you wish, though in that case, you may want to check if lullabying has a preference between alt3c and alt4. personally, i think alt3c would be more interesting to a wider audience, but won't stand in your way if you find alt4 more interesting.
    by the way, if you are preferring to not personally approve alt3c because you believe it is misleading and do not wish to be responsible for it, i can approve it instead, so that you would only be responsible for the rest of the review, as i do not find alt3c to be inaccurate. dying (talk) 14:08, 22 January 2023 (UTC)
Pretty much. I'm worried that the hook is just vague enough to have multiple interpretations ("start of Drama Shower" could refer to the block actually starting, as in its first ever series, or merely Mr. Unlucky being the first one to broadcast on the block). As I mentioned earlier, I'm willing to approve ALT3c myself, I just wanted to see what the alternative options were. Also, I apologize for missing ALT4; I had been busy around that time and did not notice that it had been proposed. In any case, here's what I will do: I am approving both ALT3c and ALT4 and I will leave the decision on what hook to use to the promoter. However, in order to let a fresh set of eyes look at this, I'd prefer if the one promoting is someone who has yet to comment on the nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
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