Template:Did you know nominations/Dick Burns

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:53, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Dick Burns

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~~... that baseball historian Bill James included the following in his list of retrobermanisms: "(See a doctor immediately if your) Dick Burns"?~~

Reviewed:

5x expanded by Cbl62 (talk). Self nominated at 02:20, 24 July 2014 (UTC).

I suspect that "retrobermanisms" will mean absolutely nothing to the average reader (and in fact it only seems to get 49 hits on Google). 97198 (talk) 12:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I think that's correct, which may make people more likely to check out the article. If use of that terms is a problem, though, we could go with this alt. Cbl62 (talk) 14:45, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

alt 1 ~~... that baseball historian Bill James included the following in his list of retroactive player nicknames: "(See a doctor immediately if your) Dick Burns"?~~

I agree with cbl. I think it's allowable to drop the parens for the purposes of the hook.

ALT2 ~~... that "See a doctor immediately if your Dick Burns" is a Bill James "retrobermanism"?~~

or

ALT3 ~~... that Bill James suggested, "See a doctor immediately if your Dick Burns"?~~

EEng (talk) 03:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I am ok with the original or any of alts 1 to 3. Cbl62 (talk) 04:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Full review of nomination needed now that hook discussion is over. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:44, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Met 5x expansion requirement, long enough, and submitted timely enough when originally nominated in July. Article is neutral, sufficiently cited, and no paraphrasing issues noted. While I find the above hooks humorous, I find its mention in the article as trivial. I couldn't find evidence that this phrase has received much press outside of James' book. As such, I would suggest an alt hook on another aspect of Burns (not sure if this is why this DYK has not been approved for so long).—Bagumba (talk) 23:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what you're suggesting. Bill James's Historical Abstract is probably the most important work ever written on baseball history, so I'm not sure why it would need to be repeated elsewhere. Or are you saying that you think the hook is in bad taste and should not appear on the main page for that reason? Cbl62 (talk) 02:54, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not questioning the book's standing as a whole. What I'm not comfortable with is a Wikipedia article mentioning a humorous nickname that James came up with that (seemingly) nobody else in the media has bothered mentioning. Seems trivial to Burns' bio. Bermanisms, on the other hand, get plenty of third-party coverage outside of Berman's airtime on ESPN. No problem if you want to wait for another reviewer's opinion. I dont plan to outright reject this.—Bagumba (talk) 06:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
See also WP:IPCEXAMPLES, specifically "Have multiple reliable sources pointed out the reference?".—Bagumba (talk) 06:22, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

* Please deem this to be withdrawn. I initially thought that Bill James' comment made for a funny hook. Bagumba's comments, and the absence of prior comments, suggests that some may think this was in bad taste. Better course at this point is to withdraw it which I now do. Cbl62 (talk) 19:05, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Withdrawn by nominator. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, but if a nom is withdrawn by its nominator, is it possible for another user to intercept and propose a hook of their own to save it? If so, I can propose these hooks:

ALT4: ~~... that despite being considered by Bill James as the best players in the Union Association, Dick Burns played only 14 games in his National League return?~~
ALT5: ~~... that Dick Burns was only 5 feet, 7 inches, and weighed 140 pounds when he joined the National League?~~
ALT6: ~~... that Dick Burns served as a baseball team's manager at only 22 years of age?~~

Zappa 24 Mati 01:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

If Cbl62 is willing to have the nomination continue under any of the new hooks, yes. If he still wishes it withdrawn, then we honor his request. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I had really though the burning dick joke was the only decent hook, but I do appreciate ZappaOMati taking an interest. If others think the alts are ok, I have no objection to proceeding. If others think the alts are lame, I'm also fine with just moving on. Cbl62 (talk) 03:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Cbl62, I have to say I'm not excited by any of the new hooks: ALT4 is misleading, because James is arguing that the Union Association wasn't a true major league because Burns fared so poorly on his return to the National league (also, he said "one of the best players" and it should have been quoted that way here); ALT5 doesn't seem very interesting (and should specify the sport), and ALT6 refers to a brief stint as a minor league player-manager (being given managerial duties on the team he played for while the manager was unavailable) in 1886, which couldn't have ended well because he was playing on a different team entirely by early September; it's the minor league that sinks this one. Maybe I know too much, having read the article, but I don't see these as working; I'm happy to call for a new reviewer to get a new point of view if you'd like. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:55, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I appreciated ZappaOMati taking an interest but agree with BM that alts 4-6 aren't real strong. I went back to the drawing board and offer the following:

alt 7 ~~... that Dick Burns' "up-shoot" was called "a beauty"?~~ Cbl62 (talk) 23:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Cbl62, how would you feel about adding "baseball player" before "Dick Burns" in ALT7? I think it's important not to lose the sport from the hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I actually think it's hookier if there's uncertainty as to what an "upshoot" is. Cbl62 (talk) 00:56, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Cbl62, without the addition there's no clue that it's sports-related; with it, there's still plenty of uncertainty to hook the reader; I'd imagine you'd draw many more sports enthusiasts with it than without. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

OK. You persuaded me:

alt 8 ... that baseball player Dick Burns' "up-shoot" was called "a beauty"? Cbl62 (talk) 23:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

ALT8 looks good (AGF as it's a subscription service). However, I agree with Blue's comment that the dick burns retrobermanism (side note: apparently the book has an article) is inappropriate to the article. It smacks of trivia: a dick joke a writer over 100 years later made, based on James' name and not his performance. I don't think we include Cracked.com's dick jokes in Dick Pound's article now (Cracked, do we? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the retrobermanisn sentences per Crisco and Bagumba and my own feeling that they didn't belong for much the same reasons. Nomination is approved (ALT8 hook only) with them gone, AGF tick on hook because source available only by subscription. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:01, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I had thought that a little humor taken directly from the most respected and acclaimed baseball history book written in the last 25 years (hardly the equivalent of Cracked magazine) made the article a tad more interesting, but what do I know? Cbl62 (talk) 15:47, 17 September 2014 (UTC)