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Template:Did you know nominations/Der Ring in Minden

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:27, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

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Der Ring in Minden

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  • Reviewed: Grigory Grigoryevich Skornyakov-Pisarev
  • Comment: I'm not done with the article, but have to nominate the Minden Miracle which was named "possibly where you experience Wagner best" and other such praise.

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 12:08, 13 October 2019 (UTC).

  • This article is new enough and long enough. The image is suitably licensed, the hook facts are cited inline, the article is neutral and I detected no copyright or plagiarism issues. A QPQ has been done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:21, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
Kindly copy the discussion here, or at least the hooks from the discusions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:29, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Btw, the ping didn't work, but I check my watchlist. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Also, when you say "to prep", do you mean "from prep"? And did you return it to the nom page, for people to se it? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
WT:DYK discussion
@Gerda Arendt:@Cwmhiraeth:@Gatoclass:
On the face of it, this is not interesting to me or a broad readership. I see that the piped link at the end was changed from "a symphony orchestra" for some reason. I think this hook needs rewording to explain why this is so unique. Yoninah (talk) 21:07, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
I don't know how to say it short. It's unique that it is a symphony orchestra, an orchestra which doesn't usually perform opera. The link should not have been changed, - the name of the orchestra is too long, imho, also wouldn't tell the reader the difference. What else is not interesting: that the singers play in front? where you see face expression, and understand every word, while they usually play behind a large orchestra, far away, and you need subtitles to know what they sing? Better wording always welcome, but it's highly unusual, even unique until others will imitate. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes. Like:
ALT1: ... that in Der Ring in Minden, a project to present Wagner's Ring Cycle on a small stage, the singers performed in front of, rather than behind, the symphony orchestra? Yoninah (talk) 21:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the offer, but it needs change to reflect that "rather than behind" is sort of wrong, because usually the orchestra is placed in the orchestra pit, not visible to the audience sitting on the same level (only from the balconies), but yes, usually there's a big distance between the first row of the audience and the stage. Can we focus on the orchestra on stage? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Of course we could simply say that critics praise the Minden miracle (das Wunder von Minden) and similar phrases, but I tried factually to say what makes this miracle. One critic summarizes: "Minden in Ostwestfalen hat das Unmögliche möglich gemacht und auf einer minimalen Bühne in einer hochkarätigen Besetzung einen Ring auf die Bühne gestellt, der den Vergleich mit den großen Bühnen des Landes keineswegs zu scheuen braucht." (Minden in Ostwestfalen has made the impossible possible and put a ring on stage with a top-class cast on a minimal stage that doesn't have to shy away from comparison with the big stages of the country. - machine translation) - Would "made the impossible possible" be useful for a hook? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:36, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Taking a look at the article, I think there's potential for a hook based on the part that goes The singers acted in front of the orchestra, making an intimate approach to the dramatic situations possible.; however, that part only seems to be mentioned in the lede; if that could be elaborated on in the "Stage and team" section (with a reference), I think that would make for a good hook. Another possibility would be to elaborate on Yoninah's point about the singers performing in front of the orchestra; apparently it was because of how small the stage was for a Wagner operatic production. Perhaps a hook based on that could work, meaning a hook that goes something like "the singers performed in front of the orchestra because the stage was too small compared to typical Wagner performances"? Having been to a number of plays myself though, I'm not sure how common such an arrangement is, as I've been to a number of plays where the orchestra is also behind or below the performers. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the offers. The lead sentence is a summary of things later, and the psychology thing has been said in the hook for the director, so would be a repetition. - We can't say the stage is too small, because it's the orchestra pit which, as the FAZ critic remarked, is too small to hold a Baroque orchestra (so it was covered, extending the stage). I think we have too little room in the hook to say what is not, - better say what is. I haven't seen all singers in front of the orchestra in my life until I went to Minden, first in 2012. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

The reason I changed the hook from "a symphony orchestra" to "the orchestra" was because I assumed the unusual or "hooky" part was intended to be that the singers performed in front of the orchestra, which is a pretty unusual arrangement (certainly, I've never seen it), and the phrase "a symphony orchestra" detracted from that because it suggested that it's unusual for opera singers to perform with a symphony orchestra. So far as I was aware, opera is always performed with a symphony orchestra - but perhaps that is not the case? Regardless, it wasn't the least bit hooky for anybody who isn't aware of that particular piece of esoterica.

If it's both unusual for opera singers to perform in front of the orchestra, and to perform with a full symphony orchestra, then I think the hook would need a tweak to emphasize those points, but as that would probably prove difficult, then something along the lines of the ALTS suggested above should be adopted. Gatoclass (talk) 04:23, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I note that our own article on pit orchestras states that operas usually are backed with full size, ie symphony orchestras anyway, which is what I thought. Gatoclass (talk) 04:31, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I see your point, and yes, it's unusual for any orchestra to be on stage, and behind the singers. What kind of orchestra is performing opera depends mostly on what kind of opera it is, chamber opera with a chamber orchestra, Baroque opera often with an orchestra dedicated to historically informed performance, etc. I don't know how to say in a short way that an additional unusual thing about this project is that it was not an orchestra dedicated to opera, such as an orchestra from an opera house, but one dedicated to playing symphony concert, - "symphony orchestra" not only meaning their size but their program. Could I clarify? I also see ERRORS coming saying that piping orchestra to a specific one is an easter egg. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:42, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
I found the hook a draw, thinking "Isn't that just a concert staging?" [1]. I went off to read the article, which explains clearly. I would recommend leaving it as "orchestra". William Avery (talk) 10:34, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Would you have a way to stress that the acting on two levels (spiral staircase) with intense psychological detail was about the opposite of a concert performance? I just don't have the words in English and would need help. The stage was designed by someone who set the same works - which Wagner hated to be called operas - at the Bayreuth Festival, but he will have his hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:59, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

As for both questions, the answer is yes. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

ALT2: ... that in Der Ring in Minden, the problem to present Wagner's Ring Cycle on a small stage (theatre pictured) was solved by placing the orchestra in the back of the stage, behind the action? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:48, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
I think ALT2 has a lot of potential, but it may still need to be reworded a bit. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 22:00, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
ALT3: ... that in Der Ring in Minden, the drama of Wagner's Ring Cycle was played close to the audience, with the orchestra visible at the back of the stage (theatre pictured)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:17, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: I think we should emphasize that usually, the orchestra plays at the front, rather than at the back. ALT2 was a good start. How about this?
ALT4: ... that in Der Ring in Minden, Wagner's Ring Cycle was able to be played on a small stage (theatre pictured) [because/after] the orchestra was moved to the back of the stage rather than at the front?
Either "because" or "after" works here. Of course, ALT4 needs to be cleaned up as well. I will leave more comments when I'm off work. epicgenius (talk) 21:18, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
Please compare the colllapsed discussion. "at the front" is sort of wrong, because usually the ochestra is in the pit, not visible at all to most in the the audience (only to those on balconies). I don't think it needs emphasis. Readers either know that, or won't care. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:40, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
Fair enough. Try this then? epicgenius (talk) 21:44, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
ALT5: ... that in Der Ring in Minden, Wagner's Ring Cycle was able to be played on a small stage (theatre pictured) only because the orchestra was at the back of the stage?
Better, but I still think "drama" and "close to the audience" carry more meaning than orchestra position. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:47, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: OK. I'll try to come up with a few more hook suggestions, but if there's no consensus on the hook, then I'm afraid this nomination may have to be failed. epicgenius (talk) 22:03, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
Did you know normally doesn't work by consensus, - instead: one reviewer approves a hook. You could approve ALT3, for example. I actually won't mind more time for this nom, because there are still red links I'd like to fill before this appears, and have concert weekend so no time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
My apologies, I meant "consensus" as in agreement, i.e. you and the reviewer have to agree on the hook. I'll be out for the weekend as well, so I won't be able to personally review/approve this, but could suggest some other hooks later. epicgenius (talk) 22:11, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
How about:
ALT6: ... that in Der Ring in Minden, a project to present Wagner's Ring Cycle in a limited space, the singers and a full-fledged symphony orchestra were together on the stage of the theater (pictured)? or
ALT7: ... that in Der Ring in Minden, a project to present Wagner's Ring Cycle in a limited space, the singers fronted a full-fledged symphony orchestra on the stage of the theater (pictured)?
Jmar67 (talk) 06:33, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
I don't think ALT6 or ALT7 could work as pictured hooks as the proposals are describing the stage, but the picture actually shows the building. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:34, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
I try something new, let them find out Wagner and Minden in the article, "full-fledged" is not what we need (it's rather symphony vs. opera), also it should be "theatre" for a European topic:
ALT8: ... that in Der Ring in Minden (theatre pictured), the orchestra played at the back of the stage and was often visible?
ALT9: ... that in Der Ring in Minden (theatre pictured), the orchestra played on stage, visible for the march after Siegfried's death which a critic described as a symphonic poem on violence?
ALT10: ... that in Der Ring in Minden (theatre pictured), the orchestra played at the back of the stage, and in the end all singers turned towards it to listen to the music? Molke, Thomas (9 September 2018). "Götterdämmerung". omm.de (in German). Online Musik Magazin. Retrieved 7 October 2019.
Music had the last word! Rebecca? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:06, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
I've just seen this - I will think about it and get back to you :-) RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:42, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
I like ALT10, haven't checked it though. Yoninah (talk) 19:47, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
I added a ref to the fact (Molke 2018), saying "Die Toten erheben sich und richten ihren Blick auf das Orchester, während der trennende Gaze-Vorhang, der das Orchester von den Solisten trennt, in den Schnürboden emporgezogen wird. Doch bei dem intensiven Spiel der Nordwestdeutschen Philharmonie unter der Leitung von Frank Beermann versinkt man in den Klängen der Musik, ohne groß über diese Idee nachdenken zu können." (machine translation: The dead rise and look up at the orchestra, while the separating gauze curtain that separates the orchestra from the soloists is pulled up into the drawing floor. But during the intensive playing of the Nordwestdeutsche Philharmonie under the direction of Frank Beermann, one sinks into the sounds of the music without being able to think much about this idea.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:51, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • There hasn't been any activity in this nomination is weeks; a new review is requested to choose among the above proposed hooks, and to see if any remaining issues have been addressed. Thank you. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:36, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT10 is good, and sourced.
ALT10a: ... that in Der Ring in Minden (theatre pictured), the orchestra played at the back of the stage, and in Götterdämmerung all the singers turned towards it to listen to the music?
I might recommend 10a --evrik (talk) 20:40, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I modified the order of sentences in your comment, because it looked as if you had approved you own hook. I believe that "in the end" is needed becuase its unusual that all these dead do that, - not anywhere in the work. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:34, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
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