Template:Did you know nominations/Delores Ziegler

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Ashorocetus (talk | contribs) 16:16, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Delores Ziegler

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... that Delores Ziegler from Tennessee appeared as Dorabella in Mozart's Così fan tutte to celebrate 50 years Glyndebourne Festival, for her debut at La Scala, and in the film with Ponnelle and Harnoncourt?

Reviewed: Kaushiki Chakraborty
Comment: Women in Red music, - she recorded the lovely part more than any other, according to one source, but I'd prefer the "multikulti" list of notable samples, including Harnoncourt who just retired

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk) and 4meter4 (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 17:01, 22 January 2016 (UTC).

Long enough. Nice article. Sourced and neutral biography. Improves gender balance in wikipedia. QPQ done. Earwing's copyvio detector: violation unlikely. @Gerda Arendt: The hook is 200+ characters. Please trim. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:34, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I try to do what some opera writer's always do: pipe the part to the opera. We could next drop Mozart, there seems to be only one Dorabella ;)

ALT1: ... that Delores Ziegler from Tennessee appeared as Mozart's Dorabella to celebrate 50 years Glyndebourne Festival, for her debut at La Scala, and in the film with Ponnelle and Harnoncourt? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:10, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

ALT1 is within 200 word limit. I was able to verify the three parts of the hook in three sources cited in the article. @Gerda Arendt: I suggest the following addition to the lead, as it may give more context of Ziegler's achievement as Dorabella for your hook – "Ziegler is the most recorded Mozart's Dorabella in operatic history" (source). Could this also be the second alternate hook? ALT1, meanwhile is GTG. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:31, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding the ALT1 hook. What do you think about this:
ALT2: ... that Delores Ziegler, a graduate of the University of Tennessee, made her debut at the Glyndebourne Festival and at La Scala singing Mozart's Dorabella? Yoninah (talk) 18:56, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I really like Ms Sarah Welch's idea, if it's added to the lead. Yoninah (talk) 18:58, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

... and I said right after the original hook that I am aware, and why I'd prefer to mention places and occasions, instead of just a dubious record. Better ask 4meter4, who did more on the article anyway, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:30, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

@Yoninah: During the review, I meditated over @Gerda Arendt's comment section at nomination, then felt a 'multikulti' list may indeed be more hooky to those who are into opera/classical, less hooky to others. On UT, would it more clear with "alumnus" or "professor"? @4meter4: is there a reason why you don't want to mention "Ziegler is the most recorded Mozart's Dorabella in operatic history" in the article? is this a contested claim? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:20, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

That fact is cited to http://www.bach-cantatas.com/index.htm; a source that is not excellent in my opinion. I never use it because it is like wikipedia in the sense that the articles on that website can be submitted and edited by anyone. While in general I have found that the information contained on the website is nearly all accurate, sometimes I have found errors in content or have found verbatim text from press releases by the artist's publicist. In this case much of the content seems to have come from a publicist because of similarities in text. This fact is not an addition I would make to the article. I certainly would not use it for a hook fact verification. I prefer Alt2 Best.4meter4 (talk) 20:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

@4meter4: I was referring to http://www.music.umd.edu/faculty/music_directory/voice_opera/delores_ziegler which states the same "most recorded" thing, and it reads like faculty page on university maintained website. I am fine with ALT2, can verify all parts of the hook. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Faculty bios are often penned by the subject, or by someone working with the subject. It fails wikipedia's requirement for an independent source. I wouldn't use a faculty bio for verifying a fact like this. @Ms Sarah Welch: Also please provide a tick for alt2 for the promoting reviewer. Best.4meter4 (talk) 21:17, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

for ALT2. @4meter4: I appreciate your due diligence. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

(sorry, edit conflict) Regarding ALT2: if you think three items are too many, why not drop Glyndebourne and keep the film, addressing the broader audience? ~~I am not sure that the Glyndebourne performance was her debut there.~~

ALT3: ... that Delores Ziegler from Tennessee appeared as Dorabella in Mozart's Così fan tutte for her debut at La Scala, and in the film with Ponnelle and Harnoncourt? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:37, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt / @4meter4: If you have reasons to doubt "Glyndebourne performance was her debut there", please fix/reword the 4th paragraph of the main article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:46, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I didn't check back, sorry. I wrote an article on a woman in music almost every day. To mention two debuts is kind of boring, I should have said, or nothing. I think "film" is of broader appeal than a festival for insiders. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: While I love Tennessee and Georgia both, it is the latter state where Ziegler was born. Is "from Tennessee" clear or best? Your ALT3 hook is at 162 characters. Would an alternate wording with University of Tennessee be better? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:07, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

ALT4: ... that Delores Ziegler, who teaches at the University of Tennessee, appeared as Dorabella in Mozart's Così fan tutte for her debut at La Scala, and in the Ponnelle/Harnoncourt film? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:42, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt:, @4meter4: I believe Delores Ziegler is now a chair and professor at the School of Music, University of Maryland. See. Please double check if "teaches at UT" in the article, article's infobox and ALT4 is accurate, and if it is, please add a reliable source. The source you currently have takes one to UMD website. UMD is in College Park, UT in Knoxville. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:07, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

So sorry, I misread that. Fixed, I hope. One bio per day is obviously more than I can handle these days, will slow down. I still think that she'd be a good candidate for 8 March. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Thanks for checking and correcting the article/etc. I struck out the incorrect ALT4. How about ALT5 with UMD instead of UT? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:53, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

ALT5: ... that Delores Ziegler, who teaches voice at the University of Maryland, appeared as Dorabella in Mozart's Così fan tutte for her debut at La Scala, and in the Ponnelle/Harnoncourt film? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:00, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

for ALT5 (with 188 characters). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:15, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

This seems more like a Women's History Month hook than an International Women's Day hook. Yoninah (talk) 00:12, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. The day is more narrow than I thought, - sorry that I never looked. International she is: fromthe US, singing in the world, a role by a (sort of) Austrian composer in Italian, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:28, 8 February 2016 (UTC)