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Template:Did you know nominations/Deaths at the Berlin Wall

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:24, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

List of deaths at the Berlin Wall

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Portion of memorial for victims of the Berlin Wall

Created by Violetriga (talk). Self-nom at 20:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Quite short in references at the moment but this was significantly translated from the de.wiki featured article. Hopefully I'll get more refs soon. violet/riga [talk] 20:58, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm uncertain about this. Although the article certainly ticks all the right boxes for DYK, I wonder if it might fall into the category of WP:MEMORIAL - I'm not really convinced that such a list constitutes encyclopedic content. However, I'll ask for wider feedback on this issue. Prioryman (talk) 20:55, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • That only applies if they are not notable, which these people clearly are. violet/riga [talk] 20:59, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • But in what way are the individual people notable? I keep thinking of a rather similar page, now deleted, listing the people who were killed recently by Anders Behring Breivik. Prioryman (talk) 21:28, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • The Breivik killings were on one day while this was numerous separate incidents, each notable in its own way be it the first/last person to be shot, the innocents killed, or the guardsmen who were killed in the line of duty. They have all been individually investigated in various legal proceedings and are well documented. Well documented in Germany mainly, but we must avoid such systemic biases. Indeed, de.wiki has a featured article on the topic as well as individual articles for each victim. violet/riga [talk] 22:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • I don't think the proscription against memorials applies here, as it is more of an approach to documenting a historical and cultural icon than to honouring the dead. Yomanganitalk 22:48, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • I actually came here to argue against this, and to suggest that the article be deleted, but then I discovered that we have articles such as the lists of people executed in Texas (17 lists by decade of execution, plus the list of lists). WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a bad argument in any context, but I have no answer for it here. cmadler (talk) 23:44, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
  • ALT2: ... that today is the 50th anniversary of the first person to be shot dead at the Berlin Wall? If it were to be rushed through for tomorrow. Wish I'd started this before today now! violet/riga [talk] 21:01, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't think WP:MEMORIAL applies as the subject itself is the deaths at the Berlin Wall, which is a key aspect of the the Wall and has been subject to in depth reporting. I'd recommend that the current redlinks be delinked, but the list seems fine. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:42, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I've left them in while considering the possibility of individual articles. Some of them are certainly notable and could have their own article (as some already do) and while such possibilities exist I thought it prudent to leave them as redlinks. violet/riga [talk] 23:45, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment: rather than talking about a sad anniversary in the hook, I would like to see pointed out (for those who don't remember) that these people suffered a violently death because they wanted to flee East Germany, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
In addition, I would prefer the pic with several crosses, this was not individual, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:07, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
The problem with using the lead image is that it does not look good small because it's a panorama. I chose this one because it is a clear image. We could instead use one of the wall itself, perhaps from Berlin Wall. violet/riga [talk] 12:37, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm doing some work at the moment to beef up the content of this article. Please bear with me for a few hours! Prioryman (talk) 21:18, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, I've added a significant amount of additional information which I think improves the encyclopedic nature of this article. Given my role as an author, I'll step aside from this review and ask another editor to sign off the nomination. Prioryman (talk) 23:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree that this passes all requirements for DYK. Prioryman's additions look quite impressive, for which I've added a DYK make. Encyclopedic value is unquestioned now. Length and date are fine, referencing is good. Images seem fine. I'd like to suggest an alternate hook: ALT3 ... that several children and a baby died at the Berlin Wall while attempting to escape East Germany? (But it should be stated directly in the article) Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:19, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
The children weren't trying to escape. Indeed many died because they just fell into the water nearby. violet/riga [talk] 01:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
According to the sources I was citing, five of the six children who died drowned after they fell into water along the border and the East German guards prevented them from being rescued. Only one child was actually involved in an escape. So I'm afraid that ALT3 wouldn't work. Prioryman (talk) 01:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
We could use ALT4 ... that several children and a baby died at the Berlin Wall due to the actions of East German soldiers? Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
I tend to look for the unexpected fact to use in a hook. How about ALT5: ... that causes of deaths at the Berlin Wall included shooting, drowning and falling from a balloon? Prioryman (talk) 07:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
ALT5 is beautiful. GTG with Alt 5. Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
I like that and ALT1. Slight variation:ALT6: ... that causes of deaths at the Berlin Wall included suffocation, suicide, and falling from a balloon? violet/riga [talk] 10:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • combined, from the expected to the unexpected, not too long for me (and I still would like a pic with more drama):
ALT7: ... that causes of the 136 deaths at the Berlin Wall included shooting, drowning, suffocation, suicide, and falling from a balloon? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Both ALT6 and ALT7 are nice, although ALT7 is a bit better. Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Thinking about it I'm a little wary about the use '136' in the hook as there were many more than that, so perhaps:

ALT8: ... that causes of the deaths at the Berlin Wall (examples of memorials pictured) included shooting, drowning, suffocation, suicide, and falling from a balloon? violet/riga [talk] 14:27, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

ALT8 is fine too... Preferable, perhaps. Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:43, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
ALT8 is fine. What do you think of this pic? (would have to appear in the article, of course) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
I do quite like that one. violet/riga [talk] 22:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Another possible image, now added to the article. Not especially emotive but quite beautiful. violet/riga [talk] 22:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The first image of these two doesn't look very good at 100px, and it will be even worse for people with high resolution monitors. The second is a bit better, but still hard to identify. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Hard to identify yes, but raising attention also yes, more suitable than the one private cross, imo. I still think a cropped version of the lead picture would be best, but don't know how to do it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:52, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
I will make a crop, but the image shares most of the original's problems. Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:30, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for undertaking that. I believe that impact is more important in this context than pic quality. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:50, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Hope there is no rush; I'm only running 8kb/s right now. Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:26, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Yet another pic added. Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm happy with that one - looks good. violet/riga [talk] 15:59, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Looks good both small and large, excellent, thanks! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:01, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Good to go with ALT8 and the image. I have taken the liberty of striking the other ALTs and removing the images since we seem to have reached an agreement. Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:26, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
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