Template:Did you know nominations/Dara Torres

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 ^talk 14:45, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Dara Torres

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... that competition swimmer Dara Torres (pictured) is a twelve-time Olympic medalist, won medals in five different Summer Olympics, and is the oldest swimmer to ever win an Olympic medal?

Improved to Good Article status by Dirtlawyer1 (talk). Self nominated at 05:23, 27 January 2015 (UTC).

comment Dirtlawyer1, I had a look at this and overchecked some phrases at random (as I did above) and tried "finals, she broke that record for the ninth time, setting it at 24.25 seconds and winning the top American women's spot in the event" which matches this, but this isn't the ref given for that phrase. Can you reassure? This would be a nice hook for WHMonth. Victuallers (talk) 21:40, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@Victuallers: Thank you for your review. I do not believe that there are any "close paraphrase" strings in the article, because that's not how I write. It would have to be a surviving phrase from before my major November/December 2014 rewrite of the article for GA review. That having been said, I clicked on the linked source, and discovered that USA Swimming is incorporating entire passages from Wikipedia into their Dara Torres swimmer profile. In particular, the following sentence caught my eye: "Torres graduated from Florida with a bachelor's degree in telecommunications in 1990, and was inducted into the University of Florida Athletic Hall of Fame as a 'Gator Great' in 1999." That's my stock phrasing that I use in all of my articles for UFHOF members; a quick review of the USA Swimming profile indicates that it is a cut-and-paste of an earlier version of the Wikipedia article, down to the section headers and even an imported "citation needed" template. I guess we should be flattered, eh? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:05, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: Also from the article: "At age 7, Torres started following her brothers to swim practice at the local Y.M.C.A. and later joined the Culver City swim team". This language existed before the major rewrite, but is nearly identical to the wording in the NYT source: "Torres started following her brothers to swim practice at the local Y.M.C.A. at age 7 and later joined the Culver City swim team". gobonobo ⁺ ^c 11:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

@Gobonobo: I have reworked the sentence in question; I hope that works. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:32, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Looks good. Thank you. gobonobo ⁺ ^c 17:12, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the reassurance - and not getting annoyed at a perceived accusation (which was not there). I have taken the liberty of creating a "DYK image" which removes her arm and makes the image bigger on the page. Please feel free to revert or redo. This lady would be good for WHM although it looks like we lost the other one. WHM had 175 DYK articles last year so both would have been OK. I have looked over your article which passes the weight test and is well reffed. The hook is in reliable sources for the hook. Thanks for your contributions. Victuallers (talk) 12:15, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Victuallers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:32, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Apologies if somehow I'm seeing something that's not there, but am I the only one who thinks the original image File:Dara_Torres_2.jpg looks badly faked? EEng (talk) 04:28, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I suspect you might be as I can see no motive for creating that image. However, who cares? The image does not tell a lie. The image I created here for DYK IS faked - I removed her arm!, but the picture does not tell a lie or give the impression that she only has one arm. Suggest you offer an alternative and/or suggest why this matters and what evidence you have. Victuallers (talk) 13:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Guys, let's return to the original photo, restore the mostly blue-ish white background (nice contrast), and more closely crop it to show the subject's face and upper torso -- I have absolutely no problem if most of her raised arm is cropped out to achieve a roughly square image for purposes of DYK. It's still an excellent, high resolution digital image that shows Torres immediately winning a silver medal in 2012, and thus becoming the oldest medalist swimmer in Olympic history. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:00, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Whether you can see the motive or not is less important than whether you can see the apparent artifacts in the picture. I'm talking about the original image, not Victualler's crop of it. Please follow the link I supplied above and tell me if the border around the head isn't very unnatural-looking -- and why is she so sharp and everything else very grainy? And yes, it matters, because we don't host or use photomanipulated images that aren't labeled as such. Even if it's not readers may wonder, as I do, whether it is. Can't we find another image? EEng (talk) 15:05, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

@EEng: I don't necessarily disagree with you, EE, which is why I suggested that we return to the original image (see article infobox), and crop it square for DYK purposes. We're on the same page. Let's get Victuallers' feedback and put this one to bed. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:31, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Surprisingly EEng is objecting to the image you originally chose. Not my crop. As we would accept a painting or a sketch then I see no problem with the original image and I don't understand why we would want to investigate whether it may be in some way suspect (if it is then its a motiveless and valueless "crime"). I'm happy for you to abandon my image, but that isn't (oddly) the issue raised. Victuallers (talk) 17:42, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, it's the original image I'm talking about, and I don't know why you find this surprising. It looks like a bad cut-paste job of the subject waving (somewhere) placed atop a different background -- again, consider the border around the head and the contrast between the sharpness of the subject and the fuzziness of the background.

A fan certainly might want to fill a gap in an album highlighting a favorite athlete by cobbling together two different images, so your arguments re "motiveless" are silly. I'm astounded you don't understand the seriousness of this if it's true (though I'm an amateur -- surely we have wikiexperts who can opine?). This has nothing to do with "crime" but simply Wikipedia's integrity of sourcing and presentation. And no, we would not use an editor's artistic representation of an event, much less one from some random person off the web, and much less a manipulated image we found on flickr that purports to be real. I was expecting you to look at the image and tell me what you think, but what I keep getting is that it doesn't matter even if it's true, which is ridiculous. Of course it does. EEng (talk) 18:01, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, EEng, now that I understand to what you're objecting, I must say, I do disagree. There is nothing particularly odd about the original photo. The photo is certainly not photo-shopped. Your perception of the differences between the subject person and the background may be a simple function of the depth of lens focus, which is quite common with high-resolution tightly focused photos -- the lens is focused on Torres from a distance, using a 300 mm telephoto lens with a relatively high shutter speed (1/400). The net effect of those circumstances is the focus on Torres is very good, but the background is slightly out of focus. That's not really a problem, and, in fact is quite typical of high shutter-speed sports action photos shot at a distance. In my humble opinion, it's one of the better free-image sports photos (and taken by an amateur, too) on Wikipedia. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:24, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

You seem to know what you're talking about so I accept your assessment. And only 500 words later! EEng (talk) 18:28, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

EE, here's a link to Dara Torres' personal website [1]. Please note the rotating flash images at the top of the page; everyone of them is tightly focused on Torres' face, with unfocused images in the background (to greater or lesser degrees, no doubt based on available light and shutter speed). In particular, take a look at the photo of Torres laying down, facing the camera, with her feet raised behind her; please note that her face is in focus, while her feet in the background are not focused. Trust me: not faked.

BTW, I love the grin on her face that says "I just won an Olympic silver medal at 41, and I'm old enough to be the mother of most of my competition." I wish I had taken that photo. She lost in the event final by 1/100th of a second; she is a marvel. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:36, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

She looks like the mom on Modern Family. EEng (talk) 18:39, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Never watched it, but I'll take your word for it. I'm a couple years older than her, but she and I were at the University of Florida at the same time and had mutual friends/acquaintances in the UF athletic department. Given the commonality, it's odd that we never met (at least than I can recall). Neat lady -- she's a wonder to all of us who were once competitive athletes. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:48, 22 February 2015 (UTC)