Template:Did you know nominations/Daniela Kerck
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 16:54, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
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Daniela Kerck
... that when Daniela Kerck directed Puccini's Turandot in her scenic design for the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, she played the opera unfinished as it was when the composer died in 1924?Source: [1]- Reviewed:
to come
- Reviewed:
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk).
Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2104 past nominations.
Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC).
The article is new enough and long enough. It is properly sourced. Earwig detects some close paraphrasing with this site, so that will need to be resolved before the nomination can be approved. QPQ pending. The hook itself is interesting, but it's a little on the long side and I wonder if it could be simplified to simply:
ALT0a ... that when Daniela Kerck directed Giacomo Puccini's Turandot in 2024, she played the opera unfinished as it was when Puccini died in 1924?
- I included Puccini's full name in the hook as he may not be a composer that is known by name among most readers unlike say Mozart or Beethoven. Apart from the close paraphrasing, my main concern with the article right now is the wording of the hook supporting sentences.
She directed Puccini's Turandot in her sets for the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, conducted by Yoel Gamzou. She decided to use none of the three completions of Puccini's opera that was unfinished when he died in 1924. She identified the Prince with the composer. When he died in the end, the beginning of his Requiem was performed.
- It's a bit confusing to get how the hook is connected to this excerpt, though I think the issue here is more about wording, so a copyedit to make the article or at least the passage flow better might solve the issue. Pinging 4meter4 for help in copyediting the article so that the passage would more clearly support the hook. As an aside, the reference supporting the hook needs to be after "when he died in 1924" rather than after the mention of the Requiem.
- I would also like to ask 4meter4 how significant Kerck's directing of this particular performance is or how significant the Internationale Maifestspiele is in the world of opera, but this would not affect the nomination but rather is just a request for additional context. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Didn't you say you review my nominations only when they have lingered for weeks? Kindly read the article about the festival, - it was founded after the model of the Bayreuth Festival in the 19th century. Anna Netrebko came to sing Turandot during the festival. [2][3] - Puccini is probably better known than Mozart due to La bohéme. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- @ Narutolovehinata5 The Internationale Maifestspiele is a respected and long standing opera festival that draws a sizable international crowd (typically around 20,000 people+). It is one of the more important opera festivals in Germany, although it isn't as famous as the Bayreuth Festival which is on another level and is probably the most famous opera festival in the world. The Internationale Maifestspiele would be known by anyone who follows opera seriously in Europe, and would probably be immediately recognizable to most people living in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and parts of France (the German speaking parts along the French/German border). I don't think the average person outside of those countries would find it immediately recognizable, but that shouldn't preclude using it in the hook. Turandot is a very famous opera, and even people only nominally familiar with opera would probably either know the name or recognize some of its music. Most people would know Nessun dorma for example which has played in the soundtracks of many films and tv shows, and has been performed on numerous singing competition programs internationally.4meter4 (talk) 17:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Didn't you say you review my nominations only when they have lingered for weeks? Kindly read the article about the festival, - it was founded after the model of the Bayreuth Festival in the 19th century. Anna Netrebko came to sing Turandot during the festival. [2][3] - Puccini is probably better known than Mozart due to La bohéme. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:16, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
The hook fact is not accurate in either version of the hook. The opera was not played "unfinished" but ends with the death of Liu by design. There's a long discussion with the director at https://www.staatstheater-wiesbaden.de/download/42624/hsw_ph_turandot_rz_digital_240404.pdf about the crafting of a new ending by Kerck. If one reads through the program they make an argument about why the opera should end with Liu's death, and how Kerck utilized notes and sketches by Puccini to rework a new ending that ends in that place. In other words, we shouldn't suggest that the opera just leaves off where Puccini stopped, because that isn't what this production did. Nor should we call it "unfinished" because it was given a re-worked ending designed by Kerck based on notes left by Puccini and incorporating portions of Puccini's 1905 Requiem. I also note that it is called a "new ending" in the Frankfurter Rundschau review that is cited.
- I also have an issue with the original hook because it seems to say she was 'directing through scenic design' as opposed to staging the production. She staged it and she designed the sets and that isn't at all clear in the first hook. Lastly, the article currently fails the WP:BLPSOURCES guideline because the biographical content is sourced to an opera company website that employs Kerck. @Gerda Arendt this is a repeating problem. Stop using opera company and orchestra website artist bios to write articles. These are not independent sources, and our policies on BLPs require "high quality" (ie independent) sources. That's not negotiable.
- Finally, the last two sentences of the article are very confusing to anybody not familiar with Turandot, and is obviously in error to those who are. The character of the prince (ie Calaf) needs to be explained. Further the text asserts the prince dies and is being conflated with Puccini's death, but Calaf doesn't die in the opera, Liu does. That whole bit seems confusing and to be in error. It doesn't really grasp what the sources are saying accurately. There needs to be plot context, and discussion of the autobiographical nature of Puccini's interaction with the characters from events in his life in order to make it understood what Kerck was actually doing with her original ending which places Liu and her death (not the prince who remains very much alive) at the climax of the opera. @ Narutolovehinata5 If it is alright with you I am going to take over this review because of the factual errors in an area I have some knowledge in. 4meter4 (talk) 16:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- 4meter4, thank you for clarifying festival and opera. - The hook: it took you several sentences to describe what she did (direct, design the stage, create a new ending with different music than usually ...), - could you kindly offer a wording in 200 chars, or help with it? I think we will have to mention that Puccini left the opera unfinished when he died in 1924 (the year needed because of the centenary), which leaves little room to say more, - I doubt that it's commonly known. How about saying that the performance leaves out the happy ending that he wasn't able to compose? Trying:
- ALT2: ... that Daniela Kerck, scenic designer and stage director of Puccini's Turandot for the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, omitted the happy ending that the composer had not set to music when he died in 1924?
- ALT2a: ... that Daniela Kerck, scenic designer and stage director of Turandot at the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, omitted the happy ending that Puccini had not composed when he died in 1924?
- Other ideas welcome. - Which "biographical information" do you think is sourced to an opera company? - This is not yet a reply to the last paragraph, - we had an edit conflict, twice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- After edit conflict: what I saw on stage was that after Liu's death, the Prince/Puccini moves to the grand piano, Turandot follows, kisses him, and he dies (called "Todeskuss" - kiss of death - in one of the reviews), - the new ending. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt I think the tags I placed are self explanatory as to which sources are promotional non-independent sources. I'll take a look at the plot change leading to Calaf's death by looking through more sources. In reading the one interview with Kerck, she specifically emphasized Liu's death as her focus and pointedly named the Prince as complicit in her death through his silence. Regardless, it would seem killing off the prince at the end rather than having him end happily with Turandot would be a hooky fact. I think the emphasis of the hook should de-emphasize Puccini and focus more on Kerck and her original work. The hook language should not cram too many facts in, but should be a focused sentence on a single fact.4meter4 (talk) 21:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I made some changes, adding sources, and dropping the details at the end that you found confusing. I added a newspaper ref for the nomination for the Opera Award. Only, it's subscription only, so I left the University ref for the same fact - that people can actually read - also. (I also don't see that what a university reports about an alumna is "promotional.") I need sleep, and tomorrow is a feast day. Patience please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:57, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt I think the tags I placed are self explanatory as to which sources are promotional non-independent sources. I'll take a look at the plot change leading to Calaf's death by looking through more sources. In reading the one interview with Kerck, she specifically emphasized Liu's death as her focus and pointedly named the Prince as complicit in her death through his silence. Regardless, it would seem killing off the prince at the end rather than having him end happily with Turandot would be a hooky fact. I think the emphasis of the hook should de-emphasize Puccini and focus more on Kerck and her original work. The hook language should not cram too many facts in, but should be a focused sentence on a single fact.4meter4 (talk) 21:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- @ Gerda, I was able to find more detail in this review which confirms the kiss of death https://magazin.klassik.com/konzerte/reviews.cfm?TASK=review&PID=8178. I would suggest incorporating more detail into Kerck's article highlighting specific changes to the story between her ending and the other traditional endings. A good hook could read something like this: Alt3 ... that Daniela Kerck's new ending to Puccini's Turandot reenvisioned Turandot giving the prince the kiss of death rather than proclaiming her love?4meter4 (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- @4meter4: I'm okay with you taking over the review, but given that Puccini isn't a household name and not everyone may know who he is, I'd suggest that any hook mentioning him give his full name. I'll leave it to another reviewer as to whether or not ALT3 is okay but personally I'm not a fan of it since it assumes knowledge of the opera, which not all readers may have. My preference would be more towards some variation of ALT2's hook fact as it seems less specialist. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5 I would consider Puccini a household name and a commonly known figure. He is a seminal composer in the western canon and one of the most performed and recorded composers of all time, on the same level as Mozart, Wagner, Verdi, Bach, etc. Indeed, he gets performed more frequently than Wagner, placing third on the list of most performed composers, surpassing both Beethoven and Bach. I disagree that a full name is needed, or that Puccini could be considered in any way an obscure figure. His operas are ubiquitously performed globally and have been for over a century. According to opera base, in the year 2024 alone there are 681 different professional productions of his operas being staged around the world, and that includes companies in Asia, North and South America, Australia, Africa, and Europe. That doesn't include the many orchestras and concerts that are programing his music as well in 2024. There are very few composers so widely performed across the world, and over such a long period of time. I would think most of our readers would know who Puccini is, and if they don't, they would be the exception. His arias even get sung and recorded by pop and rock singers on occasion which is rare for an opera composer. For example "Nessun dorma" from Turandot has been performed by Adam Lambert, Queen, Jennifer Hudson, Jeff Beck, Josh Groban, Manowar, and Michael Bolton among many other non-opera singers.4meter4 (talk) 03:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- 4meter4, thank you for taking the time! I'm off for the day but reading this when just checking the watch list made the day even better. Recommended listening [4], enjoy! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- @4meter4: I'm okay with you taking over the review, but given that Puccini isn't a household name and not everyone may know who he is, I'd suggest that any hook mentioning him give his full name. I'll leave it to another reviewer as to whether or not ALT3 is okay but personally I'm not a fan of it since it assumes knowledge of the opera, which not all readers may have. My preference would be more towards some variation of ALT2's hook fact as it seems less specialist. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- @ Gerda, I was able to find more detail in this review which confirms the kiss of death https://magazin.klassik.com/konzerte/reviews.cfm?TASK=review&PID=8178. I would suggest incorporating more detail into Kerck's article highlighting specific changes to the story between her ending and the other traditional endings. A good hook could read something like this: Alt3 ... that Daniela Kerck's new ending to Puccini's Turandot reenvisioned Turandot giving the prince the kiss of death rather than proclaiming her love?4meter4 (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt unless I am missing something in the above lengthy discussion, you have not provided a QPQ. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- You of all people might have known that after returning from a good weekend trip, I first had to deal with the RD article of the day, and then with sourcing M. H.. I am not done (or am I, please check?), and before supplying a qpq, I'll have to source Kerck to your and 4meter4's liking, or not. What an opera company writes about its member is thought to be "promotional". Interesting. What I see is a list of roles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, Gerda Arendt. All work products/publications by a performing arts organization are intended as a tool of promotion as well as a tool for information. Opera companies/theatres are businesses and they have an invested interest in promoting their company/theatre and its performers in order to sell tickets. There is a commercial aspect to the performing arts, and the materials that an opera company/theatre produces for public consumption are directly connected to its commercial interests. This is why we should avoid using sources produced by theatres/opera companies as much as possible. Artist bios are written by talent management and PR companies. Most professional singers have a paid talent agent who specializes in marketing opera singers, and those agents often write the bios hosted on theatre/opera company websites. Or the opera company/theatre itself will have an in house PR/marketing staff member responsible for writing those materials. There is therefore, a direct COI with these kinds of sources because they are written as a marketing tool for commercial gain. When possible, its best not to use PR materials of this type for ethical reasons.4meter4 (talk) 15:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know what you normally read, but I see that Oper Frankfurt and Hessisches Staatstheater write their own bios, and their own high-class program books. - German opera houses in general are public institutions, financed mostly by tax money. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Gerda, it's not a completely publicly funded institution. They sell tickets and market their organization. End of story. The fact that they are writing their own content makes it WP:SELFPUBLISHED in addition to having a financial COI. We shouldn't be using materials like this other than in an external link for ethical reasons.4meter4 (talk) 17:05, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know what you normally read, but I see that Oper Frankfurt and Hessisches Staatstheater write their own bios, and their own high-class program books. - German opera houses in general are public institutions, financed mostly by tax money. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:04, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, Gerda Arendt. All work products/publications by a performing arts organization are intended as a tool of promotion as well as a tool for information. Opera companies/theatres are businesses and they have an invested interest in promoting their company/theatre and its performers in order to sell tickets. There is a commercial aspect to the performing arts, and the materials that an opera company/theatre produces for public consumption are directly connected to its commercial interests. This is why we should avoid using sources produced by theatres/opera companies as much as possible. Artist bios are written by talent management and PR companies. Most professional singers have a paid talent agent who specializes in marketing opera singers, and those agents often write the bios hosted on theatre/opera company websites. Or the opera company/theatre itself will have an in house PR/marketing staff member responsible for writing those materials. There is therefore, a direct COI with these kinds of sources because they are written as a marketing tool for commercial gain. When possible, its best not to use PR materials of this type for ethical reasons.4meter4 (talk) 15:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Richmond Theatre (Richmond, Virginia). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:30, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- @4meter4 and Gerda Arendt: What is the current status of this nomination? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- The type of sources not accepted by 4meter4 is discussed in the deletion discussion of Magdalena Hinterdobler. I believe we should not run the two parallel but wait for that to close. I also have Pentecost coming up, going to sing, and with little time to provide additional sources. One thing is sure: I'll mostly turn to Bach's cantatas for the rest of the year. No more biographies of living people for a while. Kerck's story, however, is worth telling. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:06, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Let us know when you are ready.4meter4 (talk) 01:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Today is still Pentecost, singing in church, lunch with friends. I'll try to get to it tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Today, I had to work on Requiem (Verdi) (premiere 22 May 1874), but interrupted for Kerck:
- I wrote a bit more about Turandot as an exotic story envisioned by a composer at his grand piano who dies over it. Please check. I still think that the kiss of life is just a small instance within this one piece. A hook should introduce to Kerck in general, I would prefer one that mentions a) that she is both director and scenic designer which is unusual, and b) that the storytelling of Turandot is not just some whimsical idea but is related to Puccini's death in 1924 over this opera. I tried that in ALT2, and miss it in your suggestion. Trying to please:
- ALT3:
... that Daniela Kerck, scenic designer and stage director of Puccini's Turandot at the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, identified the composer with the Prince, who receives a kiss of death from Turandot when the music he was able to write in 1924 ends? - Wording help welcome, - too long, too complex ...
- Sources: I found a ref for the shortlist. However, I found no ref for some items - masterclasses, thesis - from the Staatstheater website. Are such things "promotional"? How, 4meter4? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- 4meter4, I added another interview and several references about performances. There is now no instance where Hessisches Staatstheater is the only reference. Admittedly, the details mentioned above (teachers, masterclasses, thesis) rely on her website, but I see nothing contentious in these bits. What do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
- ALT3 cannot be used as it is 252 characters long. I would suggest cutting down all the fat because it is simply too detailed. 4meter4 Do you have a way to shorten it? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- What in my "too complex, too long, wording help welcome" did you not understand? Could you help perhaps? Brutally short:
- ALT4: ...
that Daniela Kerck, scenic designer and stage director of Puccini's Turandot at the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, identified the composer with the Prince? - But 4meter4 liked the kiss of death. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- ALT5: ...
that when Daniela Kerck directed and designed the scene for Turandot, Puccini's 1924 unfinished opera, for the 2024 International May Festival, she identified the Unknown Prince with the composer? - ALTs 3 to 5 are material to play with. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
- ALT3 cannot be used as it is 252 characters long. I would suggest cutting down all the fat because it is simply too detailed. 4meter4 Do you have a way to shorten it? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Let us know when you are ready.4meter4 (talk) 01:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- The type of sources not accepted by 4meter4 is discussed in the deletion discussion of Magdalena Hinterdobler. I believe we should not run the two parallel but wait for that to close. I also have Pentecost coming up, going to sing, and with little time to provide additional sources. One thing is sure: I'll mostly turn to Bach's cantatas for the rest of the year. No more biographies of living people for a while. Kerck's story, however, is worth telling. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:06, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. Gerda, I don't think the whole identifying the composer with the prince fact is working. It's too esoteric, and requires knowledge of the opera and composer to make it interesting. It's probably best to simplify this for a general audience. Perhaps say Alt6: ... that for the 2024 Internationale Maifestspiele, stage director and scenic designer Daniela Kerck crafted a new ending to Puccini's unfinished opera Turandot? This is factually accurate, and doesn't require a working knowledge of the opera to understand it. I struck rejected hooks above. If you like this one Gerda, I'll have to ask someone else to approve it.4meter4 (talk) 18:18, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't like it but I can live with it. I'd prefer mentioning that it was in 1924 that the opera was left unfinished. I thought that the mysterious "Unknown Prince" would raise curiosity, even from someone not particularly interest in opera. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
New reviewer needed.4meter4 (talk) 19:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
- @4meter4: I'm okay with ALT6, but the article still has the "better source needed" and "promotional source" tags. Those will need to be resolved before this can be approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Michael Bednarek, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt, that is WP:CANVASSING to ping someone to try and influence a DYK review.4meter4 (talk) 15:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see that, sorry. Narutolovehinata5 called you as an expert, I called Michael as an expert of which sources are acceptable. - What makes a reference promotional, its source or its content? - That is the question. I asked you - in a different case - to say what is promotional in a specific source, and still wait. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- No Gerda, you specifically pinged a partisan editor who already expressed a controversial opinion at an AFD on these kinds of sources with the intent of influencing this discussion in your favor. WP:CANVASS says "Canvassing refers to notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way". You clearly pinged Michael because of his expressed opinions on these kinds of sources at AFD. Not cool to canvas people to influence a DYK review. Further, I was not canvassed. When I was pinged here, there was not an on-going dispute, and I was asked to assist in copy editing the article. Further, at DYK review it is ok for the a reviewer to ask for help /another set of eyes. It's different when you are the nominator and you are trying to get out of doing what a reviewer is telling you by pinging an editor you know is likely to challenge the opinion of the reviewer. That's canvassing and it's unethical. 4meter4 (talk) 00:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- You questioned not only my behaviour, but also my ethics, a second time. I am speechless. - Michael is on vacation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- No Gerda, you specifically pinged a partisan editor who already expressed a controversial opinion at an AFD on these kinds of sources with the intent of influencing this discussion in your favor. WP:CANVASS says "Canvassing refers to notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way". You clearly pinged Michael because of his expressed opinions on these kinds of sources at AFD. Not cool to canvas people to influence a DYK review. Further, I was not canvassed. When I was pinged here, there was not an on-going dispute, and I was asked to assist in copy editing the article. Further, at DYK review it is ok for the a reviewer to ask for help /another set of eyes. It's different when you are the nominator and you are trying to get out of doing what a reviewer is telling you by pinging an editor you know is likely to challenge the opinion of the reviewer. That's canvassing and it's unethical. 4meter4 (talk) 00:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see that, sorry. Narutolovehinata5 called you as an expert, I called Michael as an expert of which sources are acceptable. - What makes a reference promotional, its source or its content? - That is the question. I asked you - in a different case - to say what is promotional in a specific source, and still wait. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt, that is WP:CANVASSING to ping someone to try and influence a DYK review.4meter4 (talk) 15:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Michael Bednarek, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Given the sourcing issues remain unaddressed the nomination cannot move forward until that is sorted out. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:20, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- The kind of sourcing was just accepted for GA Magdalena Hinterdobler. You can call it primary, because it is mostly taken from the subject's personal website, but "promotional"? The Hessian State Theater says about her:
- Deniela Kerck studied Stage Design at the Academy of Fine arts in Vienna as a student of Erich Wonder. ... (cut 14 June to avoid copyvio accusations)
- Please let me know, anybody:
- What do you find promotional in this entry?
- Is that even cited in the article?
- Always learning, ---Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:51, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- I looked now at the article and see that the questioned source is now never used alone but always confirmed by another. We could please 4meter4 and put it in the external links corner. Only: it's the most concise summary in English, so a service to readers not reading German, - why would we hide that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:01, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
- 4meter4, Narutolovehinata5, do you understand what I explained? I'd really like to solve this here and not involve more people. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:21, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
- The kind of sourcing was just accepted for GA Magdalena Hinterdobler. You can call it primary, because it is mostly taken from the subject's personal website, but "promotional"? The Hessian State Theater says about her:
- I'm not the one who raised the issues regarding sourcing, 4meter4 did. However, if I were to guess, the issue is that it's not ideal for an article to be based primarily on primary sources, which mean sources directly affiliated with the subject. Personally I don't see it as a major issue especially for more niche topics where a wide variety of sources may be impractical to achieve, but it's something that other editors take more seriously. I can probably live with it personally, but other editors can be stricter about it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5 I already put this out to a new reviewer. I need to take a break from reviewing hooks by Gerda at DYK. It is too stressful. That said, Gerda seems to want to not follow WP:BLP policy which says we must "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources" within articles on BLPs. I interpret this to mean we should never use sources closely connected to the subject when writing on BLPs because articles that lack independence can not be considered "high-quality". Additionally self published sources by the organizations employing the subject do not comply with BLP policy. WP:BLPSPS says we should "Never use self-published sources" within articles on BlPs. I don't see how you get around the fact that these sources are self published by the subject's employer. The fact of the matter is there are independent German language media sources that cover much of this same content, and its really just a matter of Gerda doing the work and adding sources we can use to verify the same material in addition to removing non-independent source as citiations (external links are fine). In other words, it's perfectly possible for Gerda to be policy compliant (which she pretty much stated above by acknowledging source overlap), but for whatever reason she is choosing not to. I don't think we should reward that type of behavior, particularly since we have a trail of contentious DYK nows and AFD noms revolving around Gerda's repeating use of non-independent self published sources on BLPs. The project needs to take a stand and send the message that we don't accept articles on BLPs built from self-published non-independent materials. This is my final comment on this. Please do not ping me to this conversation again. I need a wiki-break from this.4meter4 (talk) 01:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I think I can see the issue here now. The issue isn't necessarily about promotional sources but rather primary ones. Primary sources aren't necessarily wrong and there are times when they're perfectly acceptable if not required. In addition, primary sources aren't always promotional. However, the guidelines do state that whenever possible, articles should avoid being largely based on them.
- Having said that, I'm not sure what 4meter4's issue with the article is. Looking at the article, most of it is already cited to independent sources like German newspapers. Only a few parts are cited to the source that has been tagged promotional, and in my opinion (as someone who freely uses primary sources in articles I write/expand), they seem to meet the guidelines (there's no reason to doubt their authenticity and they aren't making extraordinary claims). Maybe it's just me not being as much of an expert on opera as you or 4meter4 but I don't see what the issue is with the sourcing is. If there are no more issues I'm ready to approve ALT6, but just to be sure, I'll ask a second opinion from Launchballer regarding the sourcing only. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5 I disagree with your summation. What are artist bios written by theaters and who writes them? They are promotional tools used to advertise artists and they are written by PR firms either paid by the artist or by the theatre. They are written by people with a financial conflict of interest. These aren't primary sources either. Primary sources are "original materials created at the time or soon after a historical event". How can a biographic overview extending through time and written by a PR agent be a primary source? It can't because its detailing events across time, and not necessarily events that the PR agent/author writing the theatre bio was there to witness. These are self published secondary sources without an attributed bylined author and without cited sources. They are also not independent sources but are material written as promotional tool to sell tickets and promote the artist. This is not the kind of material that we can use at wikipedia because of the financial coi of the writer and publisher. See the linked policies above on mandatory quality standards on used sources on BLP pages. These sources are a BLP violation under WP:BLPSPS. One could make an argument that the sources comply with WP:BLPSELFPUB, but unfortunately I've often found these kinds of sources likely to contain errors or misrepresentations (such as resume padding). I'm not saying this particular theatre bio has any errors, but that in general I've learned to distrust this kind of document because I have found errors in other similar bios. If we can avoid using them (which we can), we should avoid using them.4meter4 (talk) 02:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5 I already put this out to a new reviewer. I need to take a break from reviewing hooks by Gerda at DYK. It is too stressful. That said, Gerda seems to want to not follow WP:BLP policy which says we must "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources" within articles on BLPs. I interpret this to mean we should never use sources closely connected to the subject when writing on BLPs because articles that lack independence can not be considered "high-quality". Additionally self published sources by the organizations employing the subject do not comply with BLP policy. WP:BLPSPS says we should "Never use self-published sources" within articles on BlPs. I don't see how you get around the fact that these sources are self published by the subject's employer. The fact of the matter is there are independent German language media sources that cover much of this same content, and its really just a matter of Gerda doing the work and adding sources we can use to verify the same material in addition to removing non-independent source as citiations (external links are fine). In other words, it's perfectly possible for Gerda to be policy compliant (which she pretty much stated above by acknowledging source overlap), but for whatever reason she is choosing not to. I don't think we should reward that type of behavior, particularly since we have a trail of contentious DYK nows and AFD noms revolving around Gerda's repeating use of non-independent self published sources on BLPs. The project needs to take a stand and send the message that we don't accept articles on BLPs built from self-published non-independent materials. This is my final comment on this. Please do not ping me to this conversation again. I need a wiki-break from this.4meter4 (talk) 01:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not the one who raised the issues regarding sourcing, 4meter4 did. However, if I were to guess, the issue is that it's not ideal for an article to be based primarily on primary sources, which mean sources directly affiliated with the subject. Personally I don't see it as a major issue especially for more niche topics where a wide variety of sources may be impractical to achieve, but it's something that other editors take more seriously. I can probably live with it personally, but other editors can be stricter about it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for coming over but what you said is very general, instead of telling me and the potential new reviewer what might be problematic about this one source by Hessisches Staatstheater (HS) for this person. As said - did you miss that, 4meter4? - the three facts of that source being used are also covered by other sources, but I would like to leave the HS one in place as in English, and thus a help to readers who don't read German. To move this nomination, could one of you please remove the tagging of the HS source as "promotional"? Once that it done, I think that you, Narutolovehinata5, could approve. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
- Neither of the tags on reference #3 are listed at WP:DISPUTETAG, so technically this could run with them on, although I certainly wouldn't be the one promoting it. What is that reference actually being used for, given that all three uses are next to reference #2?--Launchballer 20:31, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly, there's no reason to leave the source in the article because secondary references were added after I raised the issue about the source being inappropriate. There's really no point to keeping that source as a cited reference now that we have the same content in a reliable secondary independent sources. If Gerda still wants it in the article it can become an external link as opposed to a cited reference, problem solved.4meter4 (talk) 21:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- You say what I also said, but you didn't reply to: it's a convenient summary in English, while the secondary sources are all in German. I want it in the article not for my sake, but for the (only) English-speaking readers. None of you critics have told me a single sentence in it that would be promotional, and the facts for which it used are supported by the secondary source, so I fail to see the problem that you think hiding it in External links would solve. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- This is why I am finding it increasingly frustrating to work with you. You aren’t willing to do what’s being asked of you. Bad sources shouldn’t be used as cited references. Period. Move it to the external links or remove it entirely. Readers are smart enough to use a google search engine or google translate if they want to find something outside the article that they can read in English.4meter4 (talk) 16:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
I can see this getting nasty, so I've cut the source myself. I interpret ALT6 as being within the phrase "When Puccini died in 1924, he had not yet set the happy ending of the libretto to music; Kerck decided to use none of the completions of Puccini's opera by others.[13]", so I'm AGF approving this.--Launchballer 17:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- This is why I am finding it increasingly frustrating to work with you. You aren’t willing to do what’s being asked of you. Bad sources shouldn’t be used as cited references. Period. Move it to the external links or remove it entirely. Readers are smart enough to use a google search engine or google translate if they want to find something outside the article that they can read in English.4meter4 (talk) 16:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- You say what I also said, but you didn't reply to: it's a convenient summary in English, while the secondary sources are all in German. I want it in the article not for my sake, but for the (only) English-speaking readers. None of you critics have told me a single sentence in it that would be promotional, and the facts for which it used are supported by the secondary source, so I fail to see the problem that you think hiding it in External links would solve. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly, there's no reason to leave the source in the article because secondary references were added after I raised the issue about the source being inappropriate. There's really no point to keeping that source as a cited reference now that we have the same content in a reliable secondary independent sources. If Gerda still wants it in the article it can become an external link as opposed to a cited reference, problem solved.4meter4 (talk) 21:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
