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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:55, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Daisy Earles

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Daisy Earles in scene from the film Freaks (1932)
Daisy Earles in scene from the film Freaks (1932)

Created by Nvvchar (talk). Self-nominated at 05:22, 4 June 2016 (UTC).

  • While the article is new enough and long enough (it was a former redirect), I'm a bit troubled with the hook. It's interesting, but there's no immediate inline citation for it. Additionally, I'm worried about the use of a Prezi presentation as a source throughout the article. A few tweaks could get this article there. Raymie (t • c) 05:03, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Raymie Thanks for the review. I have fixed a reference to the hook text and did some copy editing. As Prezi (prexi.com) is a wiki article I used this reference in the article. Nvvchar. 08:19, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Nvvchar That's not a good practice to cite someone copying another encyclopedia article as a source (it's like citing a Wikipedia mirror). The article The Doll Family lacks inline citations, which indicates an underlying problem. Some more research is needed so the article can be weaned off the Prezi "source". Raymie (t • c) 15:46, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately Prezi is a website that hosts user-generated slideshows and therefore is not a reliable source per WP:USERG. 97198 (talk) 13:49, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
  • OK. I have removed the Prezi ref. Added three new references and modified the text as essential. I hope it meets the above reviews by Raymie and 97198. Thanks.Nvvchar. 12:16, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
  • New reviewer needed, since neither previous reviewer has returned. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:54, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
The hook is now cited to what appears to be a reliable source, though the actual claim to be a "minature Mae West" doesn't seem to be a popular opinion. I also think "midget" can go from the hook; it's possibly unnecessarily inflammatory - sorry I can't remember what the politically correct is for "vertically disadvantaged" these days... Too much of the article is cited to IMDB, which is not generally considered a reliable source as too much content is user-generated and needs to be backed up by a supporting source. Also, the link to Prezi, described as "a cloud-based presentation software based on a software as a service model" confuses me - what on earth has that got to do with being a source? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:40, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm not seeing the problem with the hook. Here's a selection of sources:
  1. 'Daisy (often billed as “the midget Mae West”)'
  2. 'Daisy Earles (1907-1980) who was often billed as the Midget Mae West. '
  3. 'Daisy, the midget Mae West'
  4. 'Daisy Schneider, the tallest of them all and known as "the midget Mae West".'
  5. 'Daisy, "the Midget Mae West," is the tallest and prettiest.'
  6. 'Daisy, the tallest by a further inch, was known as the 'midget Mae West'.'
  7. 'Daisy était également surnommée « The Midget Mae West »'
  8. 'Daisy Earles - sidstnævnte gik under betegnelsen The Midget Mae West'
As the word midget seems to have been part of her theatrical billing, we should keep it. See also WP:EUPHEMISM. Andrew D. (talk) 19:47, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Except that "midget" is now viewed as highly offensive and demeaning. The word today is Little Person or dwarf. We wouldn't put the "n-word" into a DYK hook about an African-Americans, and this word is just as offensive to Little People. See: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5] ("...the term has fallen into disfavor and is considered offensive by most people of short stature. The term dates back to 1865, the height of the "freak show" era, and was generally applied only to short-statured persons who were displayed for public amusement, which is why it is considered so unacceptable today.). Montanabw(talk) 21:02, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
  • The root word just means small/tiny and appears without any issues in titles such as midget submarine and MG Midget. Little Person is a redlink, sounds too condescending and reminds me of Randy Newman's Short People which also got people excited. Dwarfs are something else again, being mainly used for the people who have distorted proportions such as large heads or the fantasy race. Andrew D. (talk) 06:08, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I oppose ALT1 per WP:EUPHEMISM and WP:CENSOR. If the historical billing as "the midget Mae West" causes excitement then this make it a good hook. Changing this to suit some modern sensibility would be anachronistic. Let's try putting the word inside the quotes:
ALT2 ... that Daisy Earles (pictured) of The Doll Family was billed as the "midget Mae West"?
Andrew D. (talk) 06:14, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
That's not inline referenced in the article, whereas "miniature Mae West" is. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:30, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
ALT1 doesn't really grab me, I'm afraid, and we've still got the problem with "midget" on ALT2 regardless of the verifiability problems. I know we're WP:NOTCENSORED but that doesn't mean we need to be unnecessarily inflammatory. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:52, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
I am fine with the original "miniature" if it's sourced. I am VEHEMENTLY opposed to use of the word "midget," as it is, frankly, not a matter of "NOTCENSORED", it is a matter of not being flat-out rude and calling people by slurs that are deemed offensive by those whom are so described. And in the community of Little People (which is, by the way, the name of their leading American advocacy organization), "midget" is offensive. "Dwarf" or "dwarfism" is preferred. Read up and don't be ignorant, people. I don't have a lot of ownership in ALT1, but it was put out for those who think both "miniature" and "midget" were a problem. Montanabw(talk) 01:17, 3 July 2016 (UTC) If you prefer, then How about:
  • Agree to ALT3 hook.Nvvchar. 01:28, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Reviewer needed for ALT3; I have struck the previous hooks due to the listed objections above. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:48, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I've given it a new look after a month. The issues I initially had with sourcing and immediate citations are gone, as are the "midget" issues in the hook. I think this can finally be promoted. Raymie (t • c) 00:38, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
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