Template:Did you know nominations/Dad Behavior
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 04:53, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
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Dad Behavior
[edit]... that Marge, Homer, Lisa and Maggie all die in the couch gag of The Simpsons episode "Dad Behavior", leaving Bart in control of the TV remote?Source: [1]ALT1:... that all but one of the Simpsons die in the couch gag of the episode "Dad Behavior"?
Improved to Good Article status by Jonie148 (talk). Self-nominated at 15:45, 31 May 2019 (UTC).
New hooks are needed as both fail WP:DYKSG#C6, which require that hooks about works of fiction need to be connected to the real world in some way. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:55, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- Okay. I hadn't noticed (and don't like) this rule, but I'm obviously going to have to play along. The hooks suggested above are the most interesting aspect of the article in my opinion, so although bringing in "real world context" makes the phrasing more awkward, I want to adapt them, rather than redo them. How about the following alternative?
ALT2 ... that all but one of the Simpsons die prior to the couch gag of the episode "Dad Behavior", which was also the first episode of The Simpsons to be written by series co-executive producer Ryan Koh?
Jonie148 (talk) 13:31, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- It still focuses on a plot point, so it wouldn't meet the rule either. It doesn't matter if it's the most interesting aspect of the article, if it does not meet that rule, it can't be used. I see this is your first DYK nomination so it's understandable if you weren't aware of this rule. For reference, here's an example of a possible hook that does follow the requirement of a real-world connection:
- ALT3 ... that "Dad Behavior" was the first episode of The Simpsons to be written by series co-executive producer Ryan Koh?
- Granted, I'm not sure if it will appeal to non-Simpsons fans, but perhaps another reviewer could chime in here. Another possibility, if you still wish to use the couch gag as a source for hook facts, could be to use the reviews used in the Reception section (i.e. try writing a hook about how the couch gag was received, using the quotes given by reviewers as a basis). If you're having difficulty, you're free to leave a request at WT:DYK for help. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:12, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- There is no rule which says that a hook can't focus on a plot point. The rule simply says that such a hook "must involve the real world in some way", which ALT2 definitely does. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 01:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- At the very least, it's discouraged in most cases, unless additional context is required. And even if that were not the case, the other issue with ALT2 is that it seems to combine two very different hook facts, which makes the hook lack focus. Does it want to focus on the couch gag, or the writer? It would probably be better to stick to only one or the other, but not both. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:54, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks both for your input and suggestions. In my opinion, a simple reordering of ALT2 makes it seem more focused. I also like the idea of a hook about how the couch gag was received, as represented in ALT4.
- ALT2 ... that "Dad Behavior" was the first episode of The Simpsons to be written by series co-executive producer Ryan Koh, and all but one of the Simpsons die prior to its couch gag?
- ALT4 ... that critics found the couch gag of The Simpsons episode "Dad Behavior" remarkably grim, as all but one of the Simpsons die during its otherwise familiar title sequence? Source: [2][3][4]
- I prefer ALT4 personally. Jonie148 (talk) 07:21, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think ALT4 is the best option thus far. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:35, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks both for your input and suggestions. In my opinion, a simple reordering of ALT2 makes it seem more focused. I also like the idea of a hook about how the couch gag was received, as represented in ALT4.
- At the very least, it's discouraged in most cases, unless additional context is required. And even if that were not the case, the other issue with ALT2 is that it seems to combine two very different hook facts, which makes the hook lack focus. Does it want to focus on the couch gag, or the writer? It would probably be better to stick to only one or the other, but not both. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:54, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- There is no rule which says that a hook can't focus on a plot point. The rule simply says that such a hook "must involve the real world in some way", which ALT2 definitely does. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 01:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- It still focuses on a plot point, so it wouldn't meet the rule either. It doesn't matter if it's the most interesting aspect of the article, if it does not meet that rule, it can't be used. I see this is your first DYK nomination so it's understandable if you weren't aware of this rule. For reference, here's an example of a possible hook that does follow the requirement of a real-world connection:
Full review needed now that potential hooks have been proposed. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:43, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm going to be afk for the next two weeks or so, and I won't be able to respond to reviews or comments during this time, but please feel free to continue this process in my absence Jonie148 (talk) 07:40, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
For the most part, the article meets requirements: it was promoted to GA status on time, no close paraphrasing was found (apart from cited quotes), and the hook facts are interesting. As this is the nominator's first nomination, no QPQ is required. Of the hooks, ALT4 is probably the best one due to the quirkyness and the real world connection. However, I have concerns about it. Part of the hook fact is the deaths in the couch gag; according to the rules, hook facts require an inline citation even when such citations are normally not needed in the article (such as in plot sections). And right now, there's not footnote for that part (one suggestion for this could be to cite it to the Metro source, as that's where the "grim" wording came from). I could also suggest that the hook be rephrased: instead of saying "critics found", it might be better to explicitly attribute Westbrook's review as she was the only one that used the term "grim". Like instead of saying "that critics found the couch gag..." it could instead say "that Caroline Westbrook of Metro described the couch gag...". Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:06, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Okay. How about:
- ALT4a ... that critics found the couch gag of The Simpsons episode "Dad Behavior" remarkably "grim" and "bleak", as all but one of the Simpsons die during its otherwise familiar title sequence? Source: [5][6]
- By doing it this way, both of the cited critics' claims are attributed by their exact wording. I don't want to change the wording of the hook to emphasise the opinion of any particular critic, as I feel that this would distract from the fact that the article is ultimately about the episode itself. Jonie148 (talk) 09:54, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- Renumbering the revised hook as "ALT4a" to avoid confusion with the previous ALT4, and changing to double quotes for the quoted words per MOS. BlueMoonset (talk) 12:30, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
- ALT4a sounds good, just need to cite the "Simpsons die in the couch gag" plot point in the Plot section and this will be good to go. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:32, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
- Okay. How about:
