Template:Did you know nominations/Concert abuse in 2023
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 08:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
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2023 concert abuse spate
... that "2023 has been a good year for pop stars being thrown things on stage"? Source: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/jul/05/throw-wheel-of-brie-at-pink-fans-extreme-gigs
Created by Launchballer (talk). Self-nominated at 11:55, 11 July 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Concert abuse in 2023; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
- Comment: article title is somewhat unusual, as is the proposed hook (good year?) which sounds off. Recommend the possibility of a page move to a new title (or the old one) and submitting alternate hooks. Also, the article lacks a strong narrative about the overall phenomenon and reads like separate pieces of trivia linked together simply because they happened during the same year. I think there is a potential to fix these problems and salvage both the article and the hook, but it would require a few hours of work on the part of the nominator. Viriditas (talk) 00:14, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note, I’ve made further comments on the talk page. Nominator may want to do some more research. This is not a new phenomenon as Billie Eilish told the Hollywood Reporter. Separately, I’ve speculated on talk as to why this might be treated as something new, but nominator needs to dig a bit more and reframe the article. The USA Today source I provided on the talk page goes into a bit of the explanations for this phenomenon, which aren’t found in the current article. I would be inclined to be more favorable to this DYK if the nom did a bit more work on it and proposed a new hook. Otherwise, I wouldn’t support it at this time in its current form. I would encourage the nominator to perhaps think about this in a simplified way: every story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. This article has a beginning, but reads as a list of trivia because there is no narrative connectivity to a middle and an end (explanations, reasons, suggestions for ameliorating the problem). Viriditas (talk) 03:42, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
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- I actually tried to go to a piri concert yesterday and ended up missing it after seeing noah ajc in one part of the building, assuming it was there, and not clocking it was somewhere else until it was over. I'm not inclined to go too long on the background section on the grounds that bottling (concert abuse) exists, though I have done some work on it, and I'll expand it further later.--Launchballer 13:51, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Good work, Launchballer. I think you’re very close to finishing this up. I would like to see the lead rewritten for generality and for you to consider the article re-naming suggestion (or your own), and proposing a reworded hook per my concerns about the date on the talk page. Do that, and I think we are done and I will support at that juncture. Viriditas (talk) 09:04, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm on the fence when it comes to renaming it. Yes, concert abuse has been on the increase over the last couple of years, but seems to have spiked over the last couple of months. I've mentioned the history in the middle of the lede, since it seems to make sense to start the article with a sentence about its topic. As for the hook, I propose the following:
- ALT1: ... that prior to having bracelets thrown at him in July, Harry Styles had been the target of Skittles, chicken nuggets, kiwi fruit, tampons, feather boas, cowboy hats, Pride flags, and Dr. Simi dolls?
ALT2: ... that in July, Cardi B reacted to having water thrown at her by throwing her microphone into the crowd?- ALT3: ... that since 18 June 2023, the female musicians Bebe Rexha, Ava Max, Sexyy Red, Kelsea Ballerini, Taylor Swift, Latto, Cardi B, and Kelly Clarkson have all had objects thrown at them while performing?--Launchballer 15:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
- ALT4: ... that in July, Lil Nas X changed his Twitter name to "Pussy" after a fleshlight was thrown at him on stage?--Launchballer 10:32, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- Good work, Launchballer. I think you’re very close to finishing this up. I would like to see the lead rewritten for generality and for you to consider the article re-naming suggestion (or your own), and proposing a reworded hook per my concerns about the date on the talk page. Do that, and I think we are done and I will support at that juncture. Viriditas (talk) 09:04, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
- I actually tried to go to a piri concert yesterday and ended up missing it after seeing noah ajc in one part of the building, assuming it was there, and not clocking it was somewhere else until it was over. I'm not inclined to go too long on the background section on the grounds that bottling (concert abuse) exists, though I have done some work on it, and I'll expand it further later.--Launchballer 13:51, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
I understand your reluctance about moving the title. However, you are still focusing on 2023 as if this is the locus of the phenomenon, when our sources say it is not.[1] I also explained on the talk page how this is both a long-term issue (as you have acknowledged) as well as a newer resurgence of bad behavior attributed to the end of restrictions from the pandemic, in other words, this is a post-pandemic behavioral problem specifically. I understand you are focused on communicating all that has happened in just 2023, and I think in some respects that is a justified, valid argument for a narrow article about the bad behavior in just the year 2023, which is what you have tried to do. But what you have produced is just a list of artists being hit by objects, with a valiant attempt to try to intermesh the larger issues at work. What needs to happen is this narrative needs to be fluid and story-like so that it fits the encyclopedic framework of what our readers and editors expect to see and read. I can show you an example of what I am talking about, but you have to be open and willing to change things around. Another helpful way to reframe your perspective is to consider what kind of model you are using to write this article. There are any number of models you could use, and we generally use the Wikipedia model. But it also helps to look at how models work. Two models that might spark some ideas as to how you can fix this article include the BLUF or inverted pyramid model. Take a quick look. You may get some sudden insight into what needs to be done here. Otherwise, I can provide an example of a refreshed model for your consideration. Viriditas (talk) 22:52, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Launchballer: I spent some time pondering this problem, and I may have created an interim solution, however it exists only in my head right now. When I return from work, I will give it a try in a sandbox and ask you for your input. Viriditas (talk) 04:08, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: this article topic is justified IMO, by the intersection of multiple topics, such as concert etiquette, bottling (concert abuse), and health problems of musicians, as only three examples. I only say this and provide this justification, because the current form of the article is a borderline listicle, and all lists on Wikipedia must be based on encyclopedic topics that already have its own articles. With that said, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and should not be based on lists of miscellaneous information or excessive listings of unexplained statistics. The explanatory text providing context is key to keeping this within policy. The explanatory text providing context is the decline of concert etiquette and attacks on musicians, particularly (but not exclusively) in the post-pandemic era. and secondarily in 2023 (IMO, there can be disagreement on this since there are general and narrow approaches that are both valid). The lead needs to make this (or portions of this idea) crystal clear in the first lead sentence. It should most certainly not start off by telling the reader that Bebe Rexha was hit by a cell phone in June. First, this had already been going on for several years, so the spate didn't start in June. Second, the context must be explicit to the reader in the lead and summarize the entire article in a general and less specific way from the get-go. So please, focus on writing a WP:LEAD. That's a good first step. Viriditas (talk) 10:08, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- This should probably be moved to post-COVID-19 pandemic something, possibly Post-COVID-19 pandemic concert abuse, though this could do with a wider hearing. I've made a start on the lede, but I need to expand the beginning of #Incidents before doing any more work on it.--Launchballer 16:03, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Some clues about the wider topic from Paul Wertheimer: Wertheimer, a concert security expert, believes that live concert etiquette has always had its issues, but has diminished in recent years. "Fans throwing projectiles at artists is as old as rock ’n’ roll, but there’s still no excuse for it. The line between the stage and audience, and the sense of decorum around it, has really faded", he told the Los Angeles Times. Wertheimer believes the decline in concert etiquette since the pandemic is part of a larger pattern that was already playing out since Christina Grimmie and Dimebag Darrell were murdered, and that the music industry failed to learn and take precautions, especially in the wake of the 2017 Las Vegas shooting at the Route 91 Harvest country music festival, the 2021 Astroworld Festival crowd crush, and the 2023 mass shooting at the Beyond Wonderland electronic dance festival. Viriditas (talk) 02:49, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Launchballer: check out Rachel Soloff's (University of Pittsburgh) 2022 run down of the issues post-pandemic,[2] and Madison Heydari's incredible, in depth, deconstruction of the impact social media has had on the phenomenon.[3] Both of those articles really tie the phenomenon into the post-pandemic frame. Viriditas (talk) 10:10, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think the article is good to go, as everything checks out (length, age, no copyvio or plagiarism, reliable sources, QPQ);
I'm not personally happy with the page title or the lead, but those two things aren't it isn't a large enough issue to stop this DYK from going forward.I crossed out your original hook, as the notion it has been a "good year" doesn't make much sense to me. These incidents are generally escalating levels of assault in many cases, so that kind of thing should not be referred to as "good" on that main page, despite the inherent sarcasm or irony; that's not going to play with all readers, as I myself found it troublesome. In addition to the original hook, I also crossed out ALT2, as there was some controversy over that incident that makes it disputed in some sense (the story about the water and microphone have different takes) and probably wouldn't be a good fit for the main page. So that leaves us with ALT1, ALT3, and ALT4, which all check out. My preference would be to see a hook that focuses more on the scholarly side of the issue, with importance placed on the causes and possible solutions, but that's my own POV. Viriditas (talk) 00:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)- ALT5: ... that post-COVID-19 pandemic concert abuse has been variously attributed to the effects of social media, misogyny, status symbolification, and artists' own on-stage behaviour? (Given that the article is no longer about just 2023, it had to be moved; a better title can be found later. I'll do some more work on the lede in the morning.)--Launchballer 01:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Works for me, but you have to fulfill WP:DYKHOOKCITE by making the source explicit next to the hook, and as far as I can tell, that specific hook needs to be sourced in the lead. Viriditas (talk) 09:51, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I've added them, although I can tell you that the minute this is off the main page they're coming out; they're all cited in the main body, and it's my personal opinion that ledes should not contain cites (they should summarise what's in the article).--Launchballer 10:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
My dude, I completely agree with you; it's been a while since I approved a DYK, but back when I did, it was a requirement. If that has changed, let me know. Viriditas (talk) 10:44, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Per WP:DYKCITE: "The hook fact in the article should be cited no later than the end of the sentence in which it appears." I could rewrite the whole Reactions section so that every paragraph consists of one very long sentence but this feels easier. I expanded the lede, by the way - might put this up for GA but I want to focus on getting Piri to FA first.--Launchballer 11:30, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I've added them, although I can tell you that the minute this is off the main page they're coming out; they're all cited in the main body, and it's my personal opinion that ledes should not contain cites (they should summarise what's in the article).--Launchballer 10:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Works for me, but you have to fulfill WP:DYKHOOKCITE by making the source explicit next to the hook, and as far as I can tell, that specific hook needs to be sourced in the lead. Viriditas (talk) 09:51, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- ALT5: ... that post-COVID-19 pandemic concert abuse has been variously attributed to the effects of social media, misogyny, status symbolification, and artists' own on-stage behaviour? (Given that the article is no longer about just 2023, it had to be moved; a better title can be found later. I'll do some more work on the lede in the morning.)--Launchballer 01:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think the article is good to go, as everything checks out (length, age, no copyvio or plagiarism, reliable sources, QPQ);
- @Launchballer: check out Rachel Soloff's (University of Pittsburgh) 2022 run down of the issues post-pandemic,[2] and Madison Heydari's incredible, in depth, deconstruction of the impact social media has had on the phenomenon.[3] Both of those articles really tie the phenomenon into the post-pandemic frame. Viriditas (talk) 10:10, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- Some clues about the wider topic from Paul Wertheimer: Wertheimer, a concert security expert, believes that live concert etiquette has always had its issues, but has diminished in recent years. "Fans throwing projectiles at artists is as old as rock ’n’ roll, but there’s still no excuse for it. The line between the stage and audience, and the sense of decorum around it, has really faded", he told the Los Angeles Times. Wertheimer believes the decline in concert etiquette since the pandemic is part of a larger pattern that was already playing out since Christina Grimmie and Dimebag Darrell were murdered, and that the music industry failed to learn and take precautions, especially in the wake of the 2017 Las Vegas shooting at the Route 91 Harvest country music festival, the 2021 Astroworld Festival crowd crush, and the 2023 mass shooting at the Beyond Wonderland electronic dance festival. Viriditas (talk) 02:49, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- This should probably be moved to post-COVID-19 pandemic something, possibly Post-COVID-19 pandemic concert abuse, though this could do with a wider hearing. I've made a start on the lede, but I need to expand the beginning of #Incidents before doing any more work on it.--Launchballer 16:03, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: this article topic is justified IMO, by the intersection of multiple topics, such as concert etiquette, bottling (concert abuse), and health problems of musicians, as only three examples. I only say this and provide this justification, because the current form of the article is a borderline listicle, and all lists on Wikipedia must be based on encyclopedic topics that already have its own articles. With that said, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and should not be based on lists of miscellaneous information or excessive listings of unexplained statistics. The explanatory text providing context is key to keeping this within policy. The explanatory text providing context is the decline of concert etiquette and attacks on musicians, particularly (but not exclusively) in the post-pandemic era. and secondarily in 2023 (IMO, there can be disagreement on this since there are general and narrow approaches that are both valid). The lead needs to make this (or portions of this idea) crystal clear in the first lead sentence. It should most certainly not start off by telling the reader that Bebe Rexha was hit by a cell phone in June. First, this had already been going on for several years, so the spate didn't start in June. Second, the context must be explicit to the reader in the lead and summarize the entire article in a general and less specific way from the get-go. So please, focus on writing a WP:LEAD. That's a good first step. Viriditas (talk) 10:08, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
