Template:Did you know nominations/Chisapani Gadhi

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 19:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Chisapani Gadhi

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... that females are not allowed to go inside the Chisapani Gadhi, Nepal? Source: [1] "We were baffled as the caretaker informed us that women were barred from entry here"

ALT1: ... that females are prohibited from entering the Chisapani Gadhi in Nepal?
Reviewed: Moin-ud-din

Created by CAPTAIN MEDUSA (talk). Self-nominated at 18:38, 21 October 2020 (UTC).

Article is new enough and long enough. AGFing on the various Nepali sources. I am bothered by the similarity between The fort, which is spread on four bighas of land, was constructed in 1801BS during the rule of the Sen king in Makwanpur. The fort was used for military, administrative, trade and immigration purposes after the annexation of Makwanpur to Nepal in 1819 BS. Historians said there was a court, a check post and an office of Badahakim, a post equivalent to the governor of the region, on the premises of the fort. in the source and The Chisapani Gadhi is an ancient fort in Bhimphedi that was built during the unification of Nepal around the Sen rule in Makwanpur.[1] After it was annexed to the Kingdom of Nepal, it was used for military, administrative, trade and immigration.[1] Some historians say that in the fort there was a "court, a check post and an office of Badahakim, a post equivalent to the governor of the region".[1], even with the quote it comes off like close paraphrasing. The grammar is also a little off - "military, administrative, trade and immigration", " and she added that local resident created a rumour that she died." and "Gadhi was being renovation and conservation" are just examples. Why is the funding provided by the provincial government not included? I am not sure that #2 mentions the fort in the context given. The image is properly licenced but it appears to be located in a different fort than the article claims. QPQ is low-hanging fruit, but passable. Hook is interesting and sourced inline, but the article has too many issues for me to feel comfortable approving it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:43, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Jo-Jo Eumerus, I believe that I have resolved your comments. The image is from the fort. The ref 2 does mention the fort but not for long. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSA^talk 12:15, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Some grammar fixes are still needed. Also, I've asked for a Nepali reader to check the sources at WT:DYK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:29, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Nepali: "चिसापानी गढीको कारणले नै युद्ध गर्न आएका अङ्ग्रेजहरु यस क्षेत्रमा आउन नसकेर सिमभन्ज्याङतर्फ मोडिन बाध्य भएको इतिहास रहेको छ" Source
English: The Britsh came to attack the Chisapani Gadhi but they could not so they went to Sim Bhanjyang instead.
Nepali: "कर्नेल रणवीरसिंह थापा मुख्य कमान्डर । कोशी नदी पश्चिम र नारायणी नदी पूर्वको सेक्टर कमान्डर थिए । उनले सुमेश्वर गढी, उपरदाङ गढी, कविलास गढी, कान्द्राङ गढी, चिसापानी गढी, मकवानपुर किल्ला, ढुंगे गढी, डढुवा गढी, हरिहरपुर गढी, अम्वास गढी, हरिहरपुर किल्ला, सिन्धुली गढी, उदयपुर गढी, चौदण्डी गढी लगायत सेना तैनाथी गराए" Source
English: Ranabir Singh Thapa was in charge of the west and east of Narayani River. He deployed soldiers in .....(the source talks about others forts he had put forces in)........ Chisapani Gadhi.
Nepali: "चिसापानीमा बटुक भैरवको मन्दिर छ, जहाँ महिलालाई प्रवेश निषेध छ" Source
English: There is a temple where females are not allowed.
Nepali: "यस विषयमा बेलाबेला महिला अधिकारवादीले आवाज उठाई रहेका पनि छन्" Source
English: In the past, females have protested against the "no females allowed" rule.
Nepali: "मन्दिरमा प्रवेश गरे अनिष्ट हुने र ज्यान नै जान सक्ने मनोवैज्ञानिक त्रास फैलाइएको छ । तोप पड्काउँदाको आवाजले महिलाको गर्भ खेर गएकाले जान हुँदैन भन्ने मान्यता रहेको स्थानीयहरू बताउँछन्" source
English: If a female goes inside they will become unlucky or die. Some people say the when the big cannon was fired the noise that came from it caused some miscarriages.
Nepali: "२०६० मंसीरमा पहिलो पटक त्यहाँ पुगेकी हुँ। पत्रकारिता तालिमको सहभागी भएर स्थलगत भ्रमणमा गढी जाँदा महिलाले तोप हेर्न नहुने र मन्दिर पनि जान नहुने भनेर लेखिएको सूचना देखेपछि छक्क परें । साथीहरू र तालिमका प्रशिक्षकले नजानू भने पनि पसें । मेरो घर हेटौंडा भएकाले त्यो बाटो परेका वेला र त्यसपछि पनि पटक पटक मन्दिर पसेकी छु "। source
English: I went there in 2060 N.S.. I was surprised by the sign which read no females allowed. My friends told me not to go but I went anyway. I live in Hetuda so I have travelled this road many times and visited the temple.
Nepali: "मलाई आजसम्म कुनै अनिष्ट भएको छैन, तर चिसापानीतिर मेरो बारे ४/५ वर्षअघिसम्म अफवाह चलेको रहेछ । चिसापानी गढी नजिकैको होटलतिर ‘१५/१६ वर्षअघि पत्रकारको टोलीमा आएकी एउटी केटी मन्दिरभित्र पसेकी थिई, पछि मरिछ’ भन्दा रहेछन् । मान्छे मरेको कुरा पनि केही आधार नभई गर्दा रहेछन् भन्ने प्रमाण हो यो" source
English: I am not dead as of now. The people in Chisapani told others about my death (about four or five years ago). ......................

So what happened to the DYKAGF rule. Anyway, I translated the whole article for you. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSA^talk 13:22, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, but when close paraphrasing is involved then I look a bit more closely than DYKAGF would warrant. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:09, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Notes:
1. #3:
  - Article: "During the Anglo-Nepalese War, commander Ranabir Singh Thapa deployed many soldiers inside the fort."
    - Source: "Colonel Ranabir Singh Thapa [was] chief Commander. He was the sector commander between Koshi and Narayani rivers. He deployed his troops to Sumeshwar Gadhi, Upardang Gadhi, ..., Chisapani Gadhi, ..."
2. #4:
  - Article: "But the forces did not directly face the East India Company. Thapa at the Makwanpur Gadhi stopped the British troops from getting into the fort subsequently they went to attack the Sim Bhanjyang, Nepal."
    - Source: "There is a history that the English who had come to fight could not come to this region because of Chisapani fort and were forced to divert toward Simbhanjyang." Note that, along with this one, the article cites another source that's not in Nepali for the same text.
  - Article: "The fort also contains a Bhariva Temple."
    - Source: "The Batuk Bhairava temple, which is also in this area, also has a long history."
3. #6:
  - Article: "Females are not allowed to go inside the fort."
    - Source: "There is a Batuk Bhairava temple in Chisapani; women are prohibited from entering the temple."
4. #7 (Note that this website lists a three member team[2]; they appear to be locals)
  - Article: "Females are not allowed to go inside the fort." " Many women have protested against this in the past."
    - Source: "...and women are prohibited from entering the fort." "Women rights activists have raised their voice on this subject from time to time."
5. #8 (#9 is also the same source, so I'll cover both here)
  - Article: "There is a myth circulating that if a woman enters they might die or become unlucky. Some local residents say that the sound of the big cannon firing caused miscarriages. Journalist Durga Lamichhane went inside the fort and the temple many times; she reported that she did not have any miscarriages, and Lamichhane said that the local residents created a rumour that she had died."
    - Source: "Psychological fear has been spread that entering the temple could bring anishta, even death.(I can't think of a good translation for "anishta"; it's somewhere among "bad omen", "bad luck", "disaster", "tragedy"; google translate identifies the word as Bengali and translates it as "evil" among other things) But many women have entered there multiple times. According to locals, there is a belief that [women] should not go there because the sound of the cannon firing caused miscarriages in women." "Durga Lamichhane: I have been to Chisapani Gadhi and the Batuk Bhairava temple in its premises four times... I have never faced any anishta to this day, but, I found out that there were false rumours about me circulating around Chisapani until 4-5 years ago. In roadside restaurants near Chisapani they used to say, "15-16 years ago, a girl from a team of journalists had entered the temple, she died later.""

I hope this is enough. I would gladly assist with copyediting also, if that would be desirable. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:59, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. That said,

as it looks like the source interpretation is a wee bit liberal - "Women rights activists have raised their voice on this subject from time to time" does not automatically equal "many" nor "protested against"; I've certainly seen feminists defending the burqa so I would not categorically assume that in such cases it's "protested against". Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:49, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

In context, it does mean "protested against" though it's an intellectual protest not a physical one ("spoken out against" may be better), but yes, "many women" should be "women rights activists". Another thing I noticed was the claim "she reported that she did not have any miscarriages"; I don't remember seeing that in the source. Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 01:26, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: @Usedtobecool: Where does this nomination stand? Maybe it should be failed. SL93 (talk) 08:13, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

It needs a new review; I am a bit too uneasy with the source interpretation and am not familiar enouh with the culture to evaluate it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

New review needed. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:56, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi there! I'm happy to pick up the review. @CAPTAIN MEDUSA: could you please take a look at the below comments?

Don't forget to include 'language=ne' in all of your citation templates for Nepali-language sources.
From the above thread, it looks like one remaining concern includes this sentence: "Many women have protested against this in the past." I'd suggest rewording it to "Women's rights activists have spoken out against this in the past." Edge3 (talk) 15:37, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I'd also suggest a more interesting hook. ALT2: "... that women are prohibited from entering the Chisapani Gadhi in Nepal because of a belief that entering could bring bad luck or death?" What do you think? Edge3 (talk) 15:43, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I have made changes to the article. Just need someone to approve the hook. ~~ CAPTAIN MEDUSA^talk 17:07, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Approving ALT2, with the Nepali-language sources accepted in good faith. All other criteria in the DYK rules checked by myself or the prior reviewer. Edge3 (talk) 17:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)