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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by PanydThe muffin is not subtle 18:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Children's Chapel, St James' Church, Sydney

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  • Comment: This week I wrote this article at the same time as its parent but it grew too big and so I created it as a new article.

Created by Whiteghost.ink (talk). Self nom at 04:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

History and length are OK. But nowhere in the article does the text actually say it's painted to resemble an illuminated manuscript. A reader would have to chance across the box with the quote referencing the Book of Kells and then know enough to make that inference. Perhaps the hook should be more direct.

And even given that, the article is underreferenced. The entire "Artists" section is unsourced, as is the last several sentences of "Conservation".

The layout is clunky, too. Even though it is in the public domain, I submit that the complete lyrics of "I Saw Three Ships" are unnecessary to the article, especially when we have an article that I just linked to but the article itself does not. Thus it is doubly troubling that the box they have been put in squeezes the text next to it ... rather against MOS:IMAGES. Were it removed, it would be easy to move the image of Mary and the infant Jesus to the right, thus eliminating the jarring contrast between it and the wider quote box below (And while I understand what was being thought by making the boxes gold, I seem to recall that adding any background color without a very, very good reason is also an MOS no-no).

In short, this needs work. Daniel Case (talk) 18:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

This feedback has been very helpful, thank you Daniel! I've tried to address your points. Specifically:
  • I've rewritten the text that the hook refers to, to make the link to illuminated manuscript explicit. In doing so I've also removed that quote box.
    • Good. Sorry to take so long to review this; I had a busy weekend with limited Internet access. Daniel Case (talk) 17:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Your prompting on the full text of the carol made me realise that I had the title wrong. Now with the correct title we see that there is no article for that specific carol.
    • Good catch, although nothing, of course, would stop us from actually starting one as well. But that's something for another DYK. Daniel Case (talk) 17:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
  • The reader can now more easily related the renamed "imagery" section to the lines in the text of the carol - which I believe is necessary to show alongside the images of the murals as they are illustrative. I've also removed the gold colour of the quote box.
    • I still would like to see the text of the carol not squeezing the article text. Could it be on the right below Mary and Jesus? Daniel Case (talk) 17:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I've included a brilliant reference for the conservation section (the Diakowska-Czarnota article) which I will use to develop the article further, but for the moment it greatly increases the verifiability of the article and DYK worthiness.
Please advise if these changes are sufficient for accepting this as a DYK. Sincerely, Whiteghost.ink 03:20, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
    • I think once we do something about the quote box placement, we're good. Daniel Case (talk) 17:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
      • I have moved the quote box to the right and the main image to the left. I prefer to have the Mary and Jesus image separated from the gallery ones because it is an individual composition and also one of the best paintings in the set. Is this arrangement satisfactory, do you think? And also, I don't know how to make the gallery into two rows. Thanks for your assistance with this. The comments were very helpful. Whiteghost.ink 01:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Much better. Is there any sort of source we could find for the "Imagery" section, like some sort of guide? I suppose we could say this is verifiable by walking inside, but we do need to try. Daniel Case (talk) 03:05, 21 October 2011 (UTC) Yes, you can walk inside :) Whiteghost.ink 23:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
I found a partial description of the images in this this Google book. --Orlady (talk) 19:38, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Wow! Wonderful! Thanks for this Orlady. I'll add this reference (and also go to the library to borrow the book). On another point, I have taken two other pictures that clearly show the unfinished Harbour Bridge on the mural and I would like to add them to the gallery on the article since the text specifically refers to that imagery. However, I do not know how to put the four related pictures in a row underneath the other two (that is, arrange two rows of pictures in the gallery). Does one of you (Daniel or Orlady) have the time to explain this to me so I can do it? Thanks Whiteghost.ink 23:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing and sourcing issues:

  • Article: "Pictures of children and of yachts on the harbour, taken by the well-known photographer Harold Cazneaux, were used by the artists to help with details of the scene, as were photographs of the Sydney Harbour Bridge and other harbour landmarks."
  • Source: "Pictures of children and of yachts on the harbour taken by the well-known photographer Harold Cazneaux were used by the artists to help with details of the scene, as were also photographs of the harbour bridge, then under construction and of harbour landmarks."
  • The second paragraph of the "Imagery" section is unsourced.
  • "In 1952, Anderson carried out some remedial work on the murals but requested that no further work be done during her lifetime. She died in 1958. By the 1980s the murals had deteriorated so much that the chapel had to be closed. Large sections of the paint were being lost as a result of crystalline salts on the wall surface forcing off the painted plaster and gold leaf. With a grant from the Heritage Council of New South Wales, the chapel was restored in 1992 with work done by skilled conservators under the aegis of International Conservation Services." – this is sourced to http://www.sjks.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=60, which does not verify the information.
  • Diakowska-Czarnota, Anna; Werstak, Arek (1994). "Conservation and restoration of the mural paintings from the Children's Chapel in the Church of St James, King Street, Sydney: looking for the method of transfer". Australian Institute for the Conservation of Cultural Materials Bulletin. 19 (3–4): 3–24. Retrieved 12 October 2011.
  • This source lists pages 3–24 as verifying the material. Page ranges of over 20 pages make checking sources difficult. The citations should be broken down into small ranges of no more than two pages if the information is spread out through 20 pages. Based on my spotchecks, the last two sources of the article are verified by page 19 of the source, though I am not sure about the preceding sentences.
Cunard (talk) 22:39, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
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