Template:Did you know nominations/Charles Atamian
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:20, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Charles Atamian
[edit]- ...
that because of his ethnicity, Charles Atamian left Constaninople and moved to Paris?
- Reviewed: Race, ethnicity and religion in censuses
Created/expanded by Proudbolsahye (talk). Nominated by Yerevanci (talk) at 20:29, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- The article is new. It is long enough (2759 characters (466 words) "readable prose size" when it was nominated, now even more). The article is undercited. Some important assertions like dates and places of birth and death should be cited. I haven't found the uncited hook assertion in the text of the article. What about alternative hook? I.e.:
:ALT1: ... that paintings of the beach in Saint-Gilles-Croix-de-Vie by Charles Garabed Atamian are his works with the highest reputation?
- Additionally, I am uncertain about the copyright issues of the images used in the article. They are all uploaded recently and under fair use, so I would appreciate if somebody with more experience about fair use could present an opinion here.
- --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:22, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- I say lets go with the ALT1. It can appeal to a larger and greater audience and above all it has a hook assertion. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- OK. The alternative hook is not too long (126 characters) and is properly cited. I found dates of birth and death in already cited sources so I don't insist on citing them. I still think there are some important assertions which should be cited. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:36, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
Challenged assertion is cited. OK for ALT1. AGF on French and offline sources.- Note to closing administrator: Please double check copyright status of images used in the article (I don't have enough experience with this issue). 14 of them are uploaded based on fair use rationale. Also, please double check the ALT1 grammar.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:31, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- OK. The alternative hook is not too long (126 characters) and is properly cited. I found dates of birth and death in already cited sources so I don't insist on citing them. I still think there are some important assertions which should be cited. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:36, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- I say lets go with the ALT1. It can appeal to a larger and greater audience and above all it has a hook assertion. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
I have a problem with ALT1, because I believe it is based on a faulty translation of the source (ref 7). The original sentence reads "Une grande partie de son œuvre y sera élaborée, et c'est sur ses peintures de plage que va s'affermir sa réputation." Google translate renders that as "Much of his work will be developed, and it is his paintings of beach that will strengthen its reputation."; the key phrase, "s'affermir sa réputation" uses the reflexive verb "s'affermir", which can mean strengthen, firm, consolidate. In short, it's not saying these are his works of highest repute, but rather the ones that made him known as a skilled artist. The paragraph this comes from has another significant problem: it switches from past tense to future tense, and it shouldn't: "he will" is not appropriate for a bio. Finally, the last sentence in Biography is puzzling: his granddaughter bequeaths 42 paintings, but it doesn't say why or to where. It was to the town/city where he'd summered for 17 years and actually made those paintings, and which in 1993 had named a street after him. If you want to keep the granddaughter sentence, you need to give it context. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
ALT2: ... that paintings of the beach in Saint-Gilles-Croix-de-Vie by Charles Garabed Atamian are his works that made him known as a skilled artist?
- I hope I addressed all issues? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:37, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- You have addressed the issues within the article; thanks. However, while I used the phrase "made him known as a skilled artist" above it was in explanation; I have to confess I'm not fond of it in the hook, as it feels more off-putting than hooklike. It would also be nice to get his name earlier in the hook. How about this ALT3? If you and Yerevanci like it, then you can approve it, and we're done:
- ALT3: ... that Charles Garabed Atamian's paintings of the beach in Saint-Gilles-Croix-de-Vie consolidated his reputation as an artist?
- Possible variations include "strengthened" rather than "consolidated", and perhaps a qualifying "helped" before that word (i.e., "helped consolidate" or "helped strengthen"), depending upon your interpretation of the source. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Adding later: if ALT3 is approved, then I'd recommend changing the wording in the article to align with what is used here. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:42, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- I approve ALT3. If Yerevanci don't object I will reword the article to align with it. Paintings of the beach are beautiful. What about putting one of them into hook, provided that fair use rationale is all right? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:54, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- It's a great idea—there's certainly precedent for using an artist's work in a hook—but it won't work for Atamian, unfortunately. I'm pretty sure that all of his beach works are still under copyright; a spot-check of the beach paintings show that they all use "fair use" rather than "public domain" rationales, and "fair use" is not allowed for DYK hooks, even though it's okay in the article itself. (He died in 1947, which means he's still covered by the Berne convention's "life plus 70 years", which extends until 2017 for his work.) If you will add an approval icon to your above approval of ALT3, the article will ready to be promoted. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:09, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for your detailed review and explanation. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:16, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- It's a great idea—there's certainly precedent for using an artist's work in a hook—but it won't work for Atamian, unfortunately. I'm pretty sure that all of his beach works are still under copyright; a spot-check of the beach paintings show that they all use "fair use" rather than "public domain" rationales, and "fair use" is not allowed for DYK hooks, even though it's okay in the article itself. (He died in 1947, which means he's still covered by the Berne convention's "life plus 70 years", which extends until 2017 for his work.) If you will add an approval icon to your above approval of ALT3, the article will ready to be promoted. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:09, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- You have addressed the issues within the article; thanks. However, while I used the phrase "made him known as a skilled artist" above it was in explanation; I have to confess I'm not fond of it in the hook, as it feels more off-putting than hooklike. It would also be nice to get his name earlier in the hook. How about this ALT3? If you and Yerevanci like it, then you can approve it, and we're done:
