Template:Did you know nominations/Cameron Shahbazi
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 20:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
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Cameron Shahbazi
- ... that when Cameron Shahbazi, a Persian-Canadian countertenor, performed two roles in George Benjamin's 2012 Written on Skin in Cologne, a reviewer noted his "Luciferian charm" and iridescent voice? Source: [1] for the quotes
- Reviewed: Guide to the Free World
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 15:35, 5 October 2022 (UTC).
The article meets DYK requirements and a QPQ is done. The hook fact is cited inline, and AGF accepted since the source is in German (FWIW a machine translation appears to verify it). I actually like the hook fact, I think the Luciferian charm angle is solid. But is there a way to shorten the hook? Right now it's 196 characters, which puts it within reviewer's discretion. Perhaps the hook can be made slightly shorter? The hook fact itself is good, the hook itself just needs to be shorter and more concise. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:19, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'd know reviewers who would not have problems with anything below 200, and I don't don't think saying "it needs to be shorter" is accurate. Trying to please:
- We could drop Cologne but that would leave out that he is mostly active in Germany.
- We could leave out the opera's composer but I fear the opera alone would be even less known than the composer.
- We could leave out the year, but then people not knowing opera and composer might think that's a Baroque work, - most countertenors do Baroque and only Baroque but not this one.
- What I'd be willing to sacrifice first is "a reviewer noted", but then someone on ERRORS will say we can't have luciferian charm in wiki voice. So why not just leave it as it is? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:30, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- The hook is still too long, and if your desire is to mention all of those things, that's what reading the article is for. The original hook may also be too complex for readers to appreciate the main point, meaning the Luciferan charm part. Hooks don't need to be a summary of an article and they don't need to mention every important detail. Just highlight something important. Perhaps this shortening could work?
- ALT1 ... that one review of Cameron Shahbazi's performances in a 2012 production of Written on Skin praised him for his "Luciferian charm" and iridescent voice?
- I had to drop a few details for the hook, but I tried to keep the main idea intact. As a compromise I also left in the year. I did think of keeping Cologne here, but just mentioning Cologne by itself doesn't seem to make it clear that he's mainly active in Germany. As for your fear about the opera not being well-known, I don't think it matters much in this case. The focus of the hook is the "Luciferian charm", and I think that would catch attention regardless if the opera is well-known or not. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:43, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- For you, Luciferian charm is enough, and for me it's not, it's not even key. I know I can get views by mentioning sex and crime, but I try to supply knowledge (It's "Did yu know ..:? - not "Can I grab your attention?). I mentioned a few things that I would be willing not to say, but "Persian-Canadian countertenor" was not among them. Your hook proposal doesn't even imply that he is a singer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:54, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
ALT2 ... that in 2012 when Persian-Canadian countertenor Cameron Shahbazi performed in Written on Skin in Cologne, his "Luciferian charm" and iridescent voice were noted?(165 char.)ALT3 ... that in 2012 when Persian-Canadian countertenor Cameron Shahbazi performed in Benjamin's Written on Skin in Cologne, his "Luciferian charm" and iridescent voice were noted?(176)ALT4 ... that in 2012 when Persian-Canadian countertenor Cameron Shahbazi performed in George Benjamin's Written on Skin in Cologne, his "Luciferian charm" and iridescent voice were noted?(183)- The above are shorter and still contain all the facts about Shahbazi. The only difference between ALTs 2, 3 and 4 is: 2 the composer's missing name, 3 composer's surname only, and 4 composer's full name. Storye book (talk) 10:23, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, all acceptable, and I like ALT2 best. I usually try to have the subject upfront, but it's fine. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:30, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'd be okay with ALT2, but I think "noted" is not the right word here. His performance was praised and "noted" seems too tame to fully represent the idea of the review. Maybe that one word can be changed? I can approve ALT2 once that is resolved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:36, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- So far, I avoided "praised" - also in articles - as not neutral (although I believe it is, but I remember other voices). The words speak for themselves in this case and don't need evaluation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:25, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- "Noted" as used in Standard English doesn't just mean being written down in a notebook. It can also mean something similar to "memorable", or "seen as notable"; or similar to "mentioned in dispatches". Standard English as used in Europe is famous for its understatement. In comparison to that, "praised" in American English may have a straightforward use, but in Standard English as used in Europe, "praised" definitely feels patronising. Storye book (talk) 19:37, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- I noticed something else: it was 2020 that he performed, but the key should be that this is a new work, premiered in 2012. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:40, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- ALT5 ... that in 2020 when Persian-Canadian countertenor Cameron Shahbazi performed in Written on Skin in Cologne, his "Luciferian charm" and "iridescent voice" were noted? (165 char.)
ALT6 ... that when Persian-Canadian countertenor Cameron Shahbazi performed in Written on Skin (2012) in Cologne, his "Luciferian charm" and iridescent voice were noted?ALT7 ... that when Persian-Canadian countertenor Cameron Shahbazi performed in Written on Skin in Cologne, his "Luciferian charm" and iridescent voice were noted?
- I don't think we can use the exact ALT0 phraseology for 2012 in the hook, because it looks as if he performed it in 2012. The link for the opera should be enough to give the reader "2012", beause it's in the header of the opera's article. For that reason I'm a bit uncomfortable with ALT6. Storye book (talk) 11:28, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for adjusting, and I'm fine with ALT5, - readers who know Baroque opera will imagine that "written on skin " would not be one of their titles, and the others will not care ;) - I fixed indenting which doesn't make sense when outside the nomination template anyway ;) - all previous indenting gets lost with a blank line, btw, so I dropped one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:36, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: Please would you kindly check out ALT5? Thank you. Storye book (talk) 16:51, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for adjusting, and I'm fine with ALT5, - readers who know Baroque opera will imagine that "written on skin " would not be one of their titles, and the others will not care ;) - I fixed indenting which doesn't make sense when outside the nomination template anyway ;) - all previous indenting gets lost with a blank line, btw, so I dropped one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:36, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
- I noticed something else: it was 2020 that he performed, but the key should be that this is a new work, premiered in 2012. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:40, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- "Noted" as used in Standard English doesn't just mean being written down in a notebook. It can also mean something similar to "memorable", or "seen as notable"; or similar to "mentioned in dispatches". Standard English as used in Europe is famous for its understatement. In comparison to that, "praised" in American English may have a straightforward use, but in Standard English as used in Europe, "praised" definitely feels patronising. Storye book (talk) 19:37, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- So far, I avoided "praised" - also in articles - as not neutral (although I believe it is, but I remember other voices). The words speak for themselves in this case and don't need evaluation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:25, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'd be okay with ALT2, but I think "noted" is not the right word here. His performance was praised and "noted" seems too tame to fully represent the idea of the review. Maybe that one word can be changed? I can approve ALT2 once that is resolved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:36, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, all acceptable, and I like ALT2 best. I usually try to have the subject upfront, but it's fine. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:30, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- For you, Luciferian charm is enough, and for me it's not, it's not even key. I know I can get views by mentioning sex and crime, but I try to supply knowledge (It's "Did yu know ..:? - not "Can I grab your attention?). I mentioned a few things that I would be willing not to say, but "Persian-Canadian countertenor" was not among them. Your hook proposal doesn't even imply that he is a singer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:54, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- The hook is still too long, and if your desire is to mention all of those things, that's what reading the article is for. The original hook may also be too complex for readers to appreciate the main point, meaning the Luciferan charm part. Hooks don't need to be a summary of an article and they don't need to mention every important detail. Just highlight something important. Perhaps this shortening could work?
Per a discussion with the nominator, I am recusing from this nom and leaving the rest of this review to an uninvolved editor. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:50, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
I went over the article and made a few copy edits, including for the phrasing of the hook, ALT5, which is well verified. Drmies (talk) 21:41, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
