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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 02:24, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Calcariidae

[edit]
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snow bunting in snow

5x expanded by Casliber (talk), Corvus coronoides (talk). Nominated by Casliber (talk) at 22:15, 2 August 2013 (UTC).

Review
  • 402 char --> 2729 char (over 5x expansion)
  • Expanded more-or-less today
  • Cited inline; refs look reliable
  • Hook is brief enough
  • QPQ satisfied
Issues/Suggestions:
  • @Genera and Species — Italicize Rhynchophanes?
  • Hook image generally has to be used in the article.
inserted. Corvus coronoides talk 03:22, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I see refs from The Auk and The Aux. Is the second one incorrect?
good catch; I sometimes can't type. Fixed. Corvus coronoides talk 02:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • For the hook; how close to the equator does the family extend? If you can say that it ranges from tundra to some temperate or tropical locale, that would be pretty hooky.
  • More of a personal preference, but I like putting references not attached to a inline citation in a separate section (Yuri et al and Planet of Birds are what I have in mind). This is not necessary for DYK.
More to come. Chris857 (talk) 02:09, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
Re: the hook   the family extends pretty dang far. Added the info in the article and cited it. Alternative hook could be (Alt1) ... that birds of the family Calcariidae, namely longspurs and snow buntings (pictured), range from the Arctic tundra to Mexico? Corvus coronoides talk 03:10, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
Good point - I think I like your hook better. I just slung the first one up that sounded vaguely interesting. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:24, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
The Snow Bunting can live on mountains in Scotland and mountains elsewhere, so should the hook include mountains? To me the hooks mentioned so far seem to disregard ranges or habitats in Europe and Asia where species of this family live . Snowman (talk) 18:35, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
Hmm. My attempts to incorporate your suggestion have led me to this: (Alt2) ... that birds of the family Calcariidae, namely longspurs and snow buntings (pictured), range from mountains and Arctic tundra to Mexico?
Problem with that one currently is that I don't have a cite for it in the article - but you probably can get one?
Alternately (Alt3), ... that birds of the family Calcariidae, namely longspurs and snow buntings (pictured), range from the Arctic tundra to Mexico and the steppes of Eastern Europe?
which is mentioned in the Cornell cite and can easily be incorporated into the article. Corvus coronoides talk 18:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
According to this range map the Snow Bunting can be found in North Africa. Also, it can be found in a vast area of Eurasia, but not India. Are any of the hooks factually correct? Is the article correct about the range of the family of birds? Snowman (talk) 10:48, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • A catchy hook on the range looks difficult to me, but I might be wrong. Is the family one of the families of "Nine-primaried oscines"? Some of the species change plumage colour seasonally. Can you get a hook out of anything else? Snowman (talk) 21:01, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I will leave the suitability of the hook for others to assess, but I would be reluctant to draw attention to this article with a DYK until its coverage of the big topic has improved. Is it a song bird? Do they have nine primary feathers? A better introduction might be needed. What about plumage changes seasonally? Avoid vague phrases like "higher latitude". There is an omission of the breeding populations of the Snow Bunting in mountainous areas of Scotland (which is not tundra). Bird family articles can be difficult to write, because of the vast literature available. Snowman (talk) 10:06, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • See I am happy with obviously incomplete articles at DYK - I hope it invites readers to edit and improve them. A very different scenario from FAs on mainpage. This collection is difficult as it has only been recognised as a group in the last few years, hence there is little literature on the family as a whole. I am open to any suggestions. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • But DYK does have standards; see Wikipedia:Did you know, "... we strive for accuracy and neutrality in all articles, ...". By way of examples of issues I have with the article: if the range in the article omits the range in Africa, then the article is not accurate; If the article says the range is throughout Eurasia when actually none of the family live in India, then the article is inaccurate; The article says that they tend to have brown-grey plumage, but to me the Snow Bunting looks pale or whitish in one plumage phase. Snowman (talk) 12:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I didn't find anything in my looking around that said there is range in Africa; hence I assure you the omission was made in good faith. Since you have found something that says so, why don't you add it to the article and cite it? Corvus coronoides talk 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • My role here is as an informal reviewer, not the official reviewer who will make an assessment for DYK status. My role as a reviewer does not necessarily include editing the article, which is below DYK standard in my opinion. I found it quite easy to find out that the range included Africa and I would regard a factually incorrect DYK as a mockery of the DYK project. I should add that it is said to be rare in Africa; see Avibas map. In mitigation, an article of a family of birds can be expected to be complex. Incidentally, I have made a general comment about the issues on the WP Birds talk page, so perhaps bird editors might help. Snowman (talk) 12:47, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I am not familiar with these species and am reading about them from scratch. The phylogeny article talked about them being mainly plains species. You have pointed out about the mountainous habitat of the Snow Bunting, which is now added. The Snow Bunting may be mostly white in breeding plumage but it has brown-grey markings. The article is neutral as such and is mainly missing material - which we are adding. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:15, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I think that the accidental omissions and over-generalisations that make the article misleading and most likely not up to DYK standard. It is quite an ambitious DYK to do a bird family page and it might have been easier to do a species page. Snowman (talk) 13:34, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Snowmanradio - see the Wikipedia:Did_you_know#Eligibility_criteria - they say nothing about completeness/comprehensiveness. The article is neutral and we are trying to fine-tune one generalisation on range. Yes I agree I find it easier to knock up species articles but I agree that improving family articles is important. Hence why we are here. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The "Eligibility criteria" also says; "While we strive for accuracy and neutrality in all articles, ...". How neutral is an article with an undue emphasis on the USA range of a family of birds? How accurate is an article with sweeping over-generalisations that are not consistent with the facts? Snowman (talk) 18:32, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
(outdent) As stated elsewhere, I believe it is a completeness issue rather than a neutrality issue, but I believe the current Distribution and habitat section provide a more complete coverage of the distribution. I have also attempted to cut the sweeping generalizations in favor of specific descriptions for each species. Corvus coronoides talk 23:06, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I think that it is too USA centric particularly with regard to its wintering grounds. Snowman (talk) 16:37, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Do you think the change you made was sufficient to address that? You have a good point; my source for the edit was Cornell's Birds of North America page, which explains the focus. Corvus coronoides talk 16:44, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Okay, I've made an attempt to balance on the discussion of range. Were there other issues you had in mind? Most of the family's range is restricted to North America. Corvus coronoides talk 17:11, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I note that the article now has a better account of this bird's range, but a mountainous habitat for some populations has not been included in the introduction. Snowman (talk) 10:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The article says of the Snow Bunting "... remain in higher altitudes", but it can be found on the shore in the summer in the UK. If the article is meant to say "... remain in higher latitudes", this is also difficult to understand because the Snow Bunting has a breeding population in the mountains of Scotland, which is not tundra. What is "higher altitude" or "higher latitude"? The article seems to me to have some over-generalisations. Snowman (talk) 19:01, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
To me Scotland and Germany are higher latitudes, but then again Sydney is much closer to the equator. I think Alt3 is ok. Are you happy with it? Alternatively we can come up with one about their non-relatedness to other buntings? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:52, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
It is meant to say higher latitudes. I've fixed it; thanks for pointing it out. I'm with Cas Liber on the higher latitudes point, but I've amended the offending sentence to say the buntings breed in higher latitudes, including the arctic tundra. I'm happy with Alt3. Corvus coronoides talk 23:28, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
"higher latitude" than what? Snowman (talk) 13:04, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
It's a generally understood vernacular term for northerly locations. But given our protracted discussion on geography, maybe ALT4 is better. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
I have a meeting in a few minutes that will take a few hours, but I'll come back to this and see if I can further clear up the geography discussion later today.Corvus coronoides talk 14:34, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
See on-line dictionary; I could not find "higher latitude" in this dictionary, but in had "high latitude" saying "that part within either the Arctic or the Antarctic circle". I think "higher latitude" is an inaccurate term and I am not sure if it could include the Antarctic as well as the Arctic. Snowman (talk) 19:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Offending phrases removed in the re-write. Corvus coronoides talk 23:06, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "Other species' ranges are in lower latitudes"; what are "lower latitudes". Is there a definition of this in a dictionary? To me this does not seem to be an accurate term. "Low latitude" implies near to the equator, I think. Snowman (talk) 19:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
    Phrase has been removed. Corvus coronoides talk 23:07, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

ALT4 ... that birds of the family Calcariidae, namely longspurs and snow buntings (pictured), are more closely related to tanagers, New World warblers and cardinals than they are to buntings?

I note that the Wiki article on buntings has not been updated and still contains this group now called Calcariidae. I think that this will confuse readers. Snowman (talk) 12:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
I have updated them now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:30, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Fine. Snowman (talk) 12:47, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
I like this last hook as I find the genetics fascinating. And readers can click and learn about alot of bird families. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Agree that this hook is probably better given the discussion we've had re: geography. Corvus coronoides talk 14:34, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
I think the article is much better today and almost ready for a DKY listing on the main page, but its User:Chris857 to give the definitive decision. Snowman (talk) 11:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm releasing this to someone else to finish the review. The extensive discussion above kind of got away from me. Chris857 (talk) 20:27, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Time for fresh eyes. Anyone? --PFHLai (talk) 07:16, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
  • No copyvio detected, hooks are supported, but the sourcing for ALT4 is better than for the other hooks. Let's use ALT4, but I recommend minor rewording:
I was particularly interested to learn that these birds were in the bunting/sparrow family until just a few years ago, when this new family was defined based on genetic findings. --Orlady (talk) 01:14, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


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