Template:Did you know nominations/Bu Shang
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Fuebaey (talk) 07:53, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
| DYK toolbox |
|---|
Bu Shang
[edit]- ...
that when Bu Shang lost his son, he wept so inconsolably that he became blind?
- Reviewed: Shu Hongbing
Created by Zanhe (talk). Self nominated at 07:50, 11 November 2014 (UTC).
- None of the scholarly sources, ancient or modern, considers this a legend. He was probably more than 80 years old when his son died, and it's completely plausible that he lost his eyesight after excessive grieving. -Zanhe (talk) 03:04, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- The sources cited are scholarly translations (one of them from 1893, apparently) of Confucius who, with all due respect, was sometimes confused. We don't take his statements, or those of traditional commentaries on him, at face value any more than we do Tacitus' assertion that the Germans were seven feet tall (or whatever it was he said). This has to say something like "According to the Analects" or whathaveyou -- from the only preview I can't tell who or what commentary is actually telling this story. EEng (talk) 04:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I'm afraid you're the one who's confused here :) The commentary cited is written by Professor Chichung Huang of Bennington College and Peking University, not translation of the Analects. You wouldn't think Confucius would've said that Bu Shang was born in 597 BCE, or predicted his future after Confucius' own death, would you? Actually, Bu Shang becoming blind was not mentioned in the Analects, but was recorded separately in at least three other ancient sources, including the Book of Rites, the Huainanzi, and the Records of the Grand Historian, which is why most modern scholars consider it credible. -Zanhe (talk) 05:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- Chichung Huang isn't one of the sources cited. Where in the sources is that given? EEng (talk) 05:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- He's the translator and editor of The Analects of Confucius (Oxford University Press 1997). See Google books. -Zanhe (talk) 05:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- That's a little different. I'm not sure Chichung Huang intends to represent those sketches as more than a compilation of what older sources claim (I'm not sure "crying your eyes out", as the saying goes, I actually medically possible) but I'm out of my element here and won't argue the point. You need to add the translator's info to the Oxford source so that others won't be misled as I was. EEng (talk) 05:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- He's the translator and editor of The Analects of Confucius (Oxford University Press 1997). See Google books. -Zanhe (talk) 05:48, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- Chichung Huang isn't one of the sources cited. Where in the sources is that given? EEng (talk) 05:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I'm afraid you're the one who's confused here :) The commentary cited is written by Professor Chichung Huang of Bennington College and Peking University, not translation of the Analects. You wouldn't think Confucius would've said that Bu Shang was born in 597 BCE, or predicted his future after Confucius' own death, would you? Actually, Bu Shang becoming blind was not mentioned in the Analects, but was recorded separately in at least three other ancient sources, including the Book of Rites, the Huainanzi, and the Records of the Grand Historian, which is why most modern scholars consider it credible. -Zanhe (talk) 05:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- The sources cited are scholarly translations (one of them from 1893, apparently) of Confucius who, with all due respect, was sometimes confused. We don't take his statements, or those of traditional commentaries on him, at face value any more than we do Tacitus' assertion that the Germans were seven feet tall (or whatever it was he said). This has to say something like "According to the Analects" or whathaveyou -- from the only preview I can't tell who or what commentary is actually telling this story. EEng (talk) 04:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- ALT1
... that Confucius' disciple Bu Shang was inconsolable after the death of his son and became blind?
- @EEng: you expressed valid concern about science. The ancients were probably less scientifically inclined than you are :) So I reworded the hook to remove the causal relationship between the events. -Zanhe (talk) 06:34, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- How about if we just make it kind of poetic and say he "cried his eyes out"? ALT1 sounds like one of those hooks that presents two unrelated random facts. EEng (talk) 13:09, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- Well, someone crying his eyes out when his son dies is not really surprising. Maybe we'll start with something else altogether. How about:
- How about if we just make it kind of poetic and say he "cried his eyes out"? ALT1 sounds like one of those hooks that presents two unrelated random facts. EEng (talk) 13:09, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- ALT2
... that Confucius' disciple Bu Shang taught Marquess Wen of Wei, ruler of the most powerful state of the early Warring States period?-Zanhe (talk) 06:47, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Honestly I think you'll get more mileage out of the I Ching:
- ALT3 ... that Confucius' disciple Bu Shang played a significant role in the transmission of the I Ching?
