Template:Did you know nominations/Battle of Huangtiandang

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:58, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Battle of Huangtiandang

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... that in 1130 during the Jin-Song Wars, Wanyan Wuzhu's troops were trapped at Huangtiandang for 48 days?

5x expanded by Hwangjinghai (talk). Self nominated at 12:42, 30 September 2014 (UTC).

Has been on DYK before. ch (talk)

@CWH: could you provide a diff for the other DYK nom? According to the article history, this article was created on 21 September 2014. Yoninah (talk) 09:36, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
This article has not appeared on DYK before. I created it on 21 Sep and did not finish it within 7 days. But I expanded it 5x within the 7 days before the nomination. --Huang Jinghai (talk) 13:05, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Apologies -- you are right, @Huangjinghai:. This is a a well researched and interesting article on a great topic. But there are several questions 1) The hook will not be understood by most readers so we need to make it clearer why people should come to the article. 2) The lead also needs to be clearer and enticing to readers who do not already know the subject. Let's explain the confusing names and places or remove them. 3) The titles for the Chinese references in the notes should be translated. 4) The notes and reading should add English language references for readers who want to find more. These could come from Jin-Song War article. 5) Just a suggestion: There are places where the grammar and style should be cleaned up. If it's OK with you, I'd be glad to go over it. 6) I see that the ZH Wikipedia article has interesting material on the different coverage of this topic in the Song Shi and the Jin Shi. Since you read Chinese, it might be good to use the Chinese article to add a section in the English article. Cheers, ch (talk) 18:47, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment: A little obscurity in the hook is fine; it makes people want to click on it. IMO the hook is OK. Yoninah (talk) 19:27, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Please feel free to make any clean-up, I will appreciate it very much. I didn't add English language sources found at Jin-Song wars article cause I have no access to them, those sources seem to be general introductions, I don't know if there's enough coverage about this battle in them. About the different coverage of this topic in the Song Shi and the Jin Shi, I may add a few words later. But I think to have large paragraphs of direct quotations is not necessary.--Huang Jinghai (talk) 07:20, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

ALT1: ~~... that in 1130 during the wars between the Jin and Song dynasties, Wanyan Wuzhu's troops were trapped at Huangtiandang for 48 days?~~

@Yoninah: and @Hwangjinghai:: might this be both slightly obscure and acceptably comprehensible? ch (talk) 19:51, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

The rule of thumb for hooks is: The shorter, the better. I don't see the benefit of fleshing out the link. Yoninah (talk) 19:55, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Good -- I respect your experience and accumulated wisdom! ch (talk) 20:00, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Resuming review: 5x expansion verified. New enough, long enough, adequately referenced. Foreign-language hook ref AGF and cited inline. No QPQ needed for nominator with less than 5 DYKs. I did a thorough English-language copyedit on the article, removing over-redlinking and consolidating the linking of foreign place names. I have one question about who Balisu is (see "Background", second paragraph, line 3) and I also wonder if the date of November 9 (line 4) should be December 9? Otherwise the page reads well and every paragraph is cited. Yoninah (talk) 22:04, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks for your help! Balisu's a Jurchen general, as mentioned in "Background", first paragraph, line 2 ("Wanyan Balisu"). The date Nov 9 is correct. Wuzhu captured these cities when the Song emperor was fleeing on the way.--Huang Jinghai (talk) 11:41, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifications. Everything's in order now. Good to go. Yoninah (talk) 13:22, 27 October 2014 (UTC)