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Template:Did you know nominations/Avelina Carrera

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Z1720 (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

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Avelina Carrera

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Avelina Carrera
Avelina Carrera

Created by Ipigott (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 11:35, 27 June 2022 (UTC).

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: Yes
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Forgotten Opera Singers appears to be an unreliable personal blog. It would be fine if the writer is an established expert in the field, but it just says that they are a record collector. The sentence ending with "in the role Elsa in Wagner's Lohengrin" needs to be directly cited including the sentence that includes the word "debutante" per them being part of the hook. This is now ready. SL93 (talk) 14:27, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the review! I duplicated the refs somewhat, - my bad, I probably nominated in rush, sorry. I used the reputable source gls some more, including for the hook. There are few things now referenced only by Forgotten opera singers. I feel they are not contentious, but if you disagree feel free to remove them. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:41, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt I did that, but I can't tell if "In March 1896, at Milan's La Scala she created the role of Maddalena in the world premiere of Umberto Giordano's Andrea Chénier" is in the second reference. It seemed to only be sourced to the blog. SL93 (talk) 17:04, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
What I would have done is remove the source the few instances not supported also by the others, but it will work, just a bit less colourful. I added gsl to the hook fact about the Giordano. Will look at the sentence mentioned below. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
I did that to make it easier for the readers, who might not realize that it's just a supporting reference due to the other sources being non-English and in print. SL93 (talk) 17:21, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the sentence beginning with "Tintorer but then went on to spend three years" means. SL93 (talk) 17:06, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, I misplaced the ref in the middle of a name instead of behind it, fixed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:20, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. This is now ready. SL93 (talk) 17:23, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
  • @SL93: The hook seems a bit complicated to me, focusing on two roles instead of one. It's also somewhat hard to read. I think her performance as a stand-in being praised would be a better focus for a hook. Maybe something like this?
ALT1 ... when Avelina Carrera (pictured) made her debut in 1889 as a stand in as Elsa in Wagner's Lohengrin, her performance was so praised that the audience suggested she keep the role?
ALT1a ... when Avelina Carrera (pictured) made her debut at the age of 18 as a stand in as Elsa in Wagner's Lohengrin, her performance was so praised that the audience suggested she keep the role?
I don't think it's a good idea to have the hook mention both Elsa and Maddalena, but the Elsa hook fact itself is solid. I was originally going to mention Medea Borelli by name in the hook, but she doesn't have an article so what I had in mind had to be rewritten. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:37, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
However, creating that major Maddalena at La Scala (top house of the world) gives her much more profile (than only saying what the audience of a minor house had to say when she was very young). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:29, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Rereading the hooks, I have trouble following the logic: who praised, and was the wanting to hold caused by the praise? I'm not sure. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:35, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
To make it clear, the hook idea here is that the audience liked Carrera's performance so much that they were asking for her to keep the role. It's mentioned in the article itself (see Her professional performance was such a huge success for a debutante that not only did she receive enthusiastic reports from the critics but the audience even suggested she should continue to replace Borelli.) If you want, I could rewrite it like this:
ALT1b ... that when Avelina Carrera (pictured) made her debut at the age of 18 as a stand in as Elsa in Wagner's Lohengrin, her performance was so well-received that the audience suggested she keep the role?
Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:03, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
That one works but misses the big news that she created a lead role at La Scala. - I don't know how you'd feel if all someone said about you was some youthful success, not what you achieved later. And I'll never understand why not both, in this case saying also that she did Italian and German repertoire, instead of leaving her in a Wagner niche. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:56, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
If I was Carrera I'd actually probably be flattered since I would have thought it was my big break, it's what launched my career. In all honesty though I never understood the objection as to why a hook is not good just because it's not about something that the subject is best known for. I mean, if there was a hook about SpongeBob creator Stephen Hillenburg about him being a marine biologist despite being best known for creating SpongeBob, as long as such a hook attracts readers, that should be good enough. And I really much doubt that Hillenburg would have opposed a hook about his marine biology background since it was something close to his heart. Basically, my point is I don't understand why you think it would be offensive to the subject if their hook was not about their main claim to fame. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
I think we have a language problem because I didn't mean "offensive" at all, just too low-key. People who know of La Scala (many that is) may want to know more about a singer who arrived there, and having created Giordano has an implicit time stamp (in case the image is not taken), while some Elsa in Barcelona could have been anytime. I find making a debut as Elsa (vs. some supporting role) exceptional without the audience wanting to keep her on to the role ... - I leave this now, someone may approve, someone may promote, I have better things to do than argue over a bio I didn't even write, just tried to show her in her best light. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:33, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5, SL93, Gerda Arendt, and Ipigott: What is the status here? Are there any hooks ready for promotion? Z1720 (talk) 16:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
I read that the original hook has been approved by SL93, and no better one was found. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:17, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Original hook looks good to me. Thanks for all your trouble, Gerda Arendt.--Ipigott (talk) 06:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
@Ipigott and Z1720: SL93 hasn't chimed in on ALT1b yet. Would rather wait for their response before seeing where this goes. Ipigott, can you also check ALT1b? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:59, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Check what? It reflects details from the article.--Ipigott (talk) 09:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
I mean if SL93 is fine with ALT1b or if he prefers the original hook. ALT1b hasn't been given a review yet. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:39, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
How about you not coming in when a hook is approved? Imagine how many articles could have been written in the time we discuss your "improvements". Tastes differ, interests differ, three people liked this original hook, and you still insist that yours has to be reviewed also? - I recommend you stop it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:49, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
How about offering more choices to the promoter? There's nothing wrong with that, right? For example, the nominator can be given a choice between ALT0 and ALT1b. Ultimately, hooks are (usually) the promoter's choice anyway, not necessarily the nominator's (I have personally experienced this myself in the past). If the promoter chooses ALT0, so be it. I'm just offering an alternative option here if so desired. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:59, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
@Ipigott: Just to clarify here since it wasn't clear above, are you fine with ALT1b or do you prefer ALT0? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:01, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
I thought I had made it quite clear that the original hook is fine. Like Gerda Arendt, I am all for speeding up discussions here.--Ipigott (talk) 11:52, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
I feel that you don't understand me. This could have been over when SL93 approved. There was no need to suggest anything further, but you did. We patiently argued and explained, which took time we might have spent writing articles. I'll do that now: unwatching. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:11, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Z1720 Please promote the original hook. It's been over a month. SL93 (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
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