Template:Did you know nominations/Aluminium sulfacetate
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:11, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
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Aluminium sulfacetate
[edit]- ...
that use of aluminium sulfacetate as a mordant was "rightly abandoned" by 1899 due to its production of an "empyreumatic liquid"?
- Reviewed: Sheku Kanneh-Mason
- Comment: That aluminium sulfacetate can be used as a mordant is confirmed by the following text and its related equations: "For use as a mordant, it is unnecessary that the whole of the sulphuric acid present in aluminium sulphate should be thrown down; in fact, it is preferable in practice to select the proportions in the preparation of aluminium acetate so that a sulphacetate is produced instead of the normal acetate. Generally not more than a half to three-quarters of the total sulphuric acid is removed.". The quotations "rightly abandoned" and "empyreumatic liquid" are translations of this German-language source.
Created by EdChem (talk). Self-nominated at 09:56, 23 November 2016 (UTC).
Article is new enough and long enough. The source of the chemical composition should be cited, I think. StainsFile does not appear to load for me, and neither do all pages The Chemical Technology of Textile Fibres - among other things I cannot find the "2:1" ratio thing. The German language source to me says "should be abandoned" not "is abandoned". Didn't notice any copyright or plagiarism issues. Hook is short enough, sourced inline but affected by that sourcing/translation issue. QPQ pending. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 20:05, 23 November 2016 (UTC)f
- Thanks for your review, Jo-Jo Eumerus. I have added citations which support the composition. I don't know why StainsFile does not load, given the link to the wayback archive, but I can email you an image of it if you would like. Can't upload it here, obviously, as it would be a copyvio. The same is true for the Fibres book, the problem there may be that Google books allows different access from different locations. The 2:1 ratio thing is chemical language from the equations shown in the source, coupled with the text above. These were:
- Al
2(SO
4)
3 + 3 Pb(CH
3CO
2)
2 → 2 Al(CH
3CO
2)
3 + 3 PbSO
4
- Al
2(SO
4)
3 + 2 Pb(CH
3CO
2)
2 → Al
2SO
4(CH
3CO
2)
4 + 2 PbSO
4
- They show that using 3 equivalents of lead(II) acetate for every aluminium sulfate (ie ratio 3:1) gives just aluminium triacetate and using 2:1 gives just aluminium sulfacetate, but the text makes clear these are ideals and a mixture of the two products is typical and desirable for mordant applications. I did not include the second equation in the aluminium sulfacetate article as an equivalent equation with hydrates appears further down the article, and I sought to avoid duplication. On the German language question, I am certainly willing to be corrected on translation, and I have requested assistance from Ruhrfisch, who has been helpful with translation of German language material for chemistry articles in the past. I suggest we await his input, and then address any changes needed to the hook and article. Please advise if you want me to email you images of the pages and I will ping once the QPQ is done. Thanks again. EdChem (talk) 21:20, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Imma take another look tomorrow, but for now I'll note that I am a native German speaker, so I can read and translate that too. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 23:18, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- I'm happy to accept that "should be abandoned" is a more appropriate / accurate translation. My experience with using German-language sources of chemical content is that sometimes familiarity with the discipline can be helpful, which I know Ruhrfisch has, but I certainly meant no offense to you or your expertise. I've struck ALT0 and offered an ALT1, and will update the article accordingly. Suggestions for how to make ALT1 less clunky are welcome. EdChem (talk) 00:17, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
- Imma take another look tomorrow, but for now I'll note that I am a native German speaker, so I can read and translate that too. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 23:18, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- They show that using 3 equivalents of lead(II) acetate for every aluminium sulfate (ie ratio 3:1) gives just aluminium triacetate and using 2:1 gives just aluminium sulfacetate, but the text makes clear these are ideals and a mixture of the two products is typical and desirable for mordant applications. I did not include the second equation in the aluminium sulfacetate article as an equivalent equation with hydrates appears further down the article, and I sought to avoid duplication. On the German language question, I am certainly willing to be corrected on translation, and I have requested assistance from Ruhrfisch, who has been helpful with translation of German language material for chemistry articles in the past. I suggest we await his input, and then address any changes needed to the hook and article. Please advise if you want me to email you images of the pages and I will ping once the QPQ is done. Thanks again. EdChem (talk) 21:20, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- (ALT1): ...
that an 1899 publication stated that the use of aluminium sulfacetate as a mordant "should be abandoned" due to its production of an "empyreumatic liquid"?
- I am fine with the translation in ALT1, thanks for asking my opinion (though if I disagreed, I would still defer to Jo-Jo Eumerus as a native speaker). Assuming Wiktionary links are OK in DYK hooks, I would link empyreumatic. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:01, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, Ruhrfisch, I didn't know Jo-Jo was a native speaker to start with. I wasn't sure about whether a wiktionary link is allowed, and even if it is, is leaving it undefined an enticement to read the article or move on? I don't know... EdChem (talk) 05:35, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
- Wiktionary links in articles are allowed. That said, upon rereading I am wondering if the "should be abandoned" refers to the sulfacetate as a whole or just one particular way to manufacture it - the source is not very clear also because of the broken formatting. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:14, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
- I think Ruhrfisch is asking about a Wikitionary link in a DYK hook, certainly that is what I was unsure about, because it could distract from the sulfacetate article (where there is a definition) but it could also make people skip the hook. As for whether the source refers to all uses or a specific use, I don't know. Can you read it in the image of the book at the left of the link screen? EdChem (talk) 02:40, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
- Wiktionary links in articles are allowed. That said, upon rereading I am wondering if the "should be abandoned" refers to the sulfacetate as a whole or just one particular way to manufacture it - the source is not very clear also because of the broken formatting. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:14, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, Ruhrfisch, I didn't know Jo-Jo was a native speaker to start with. I wasn't sure about whether a wiktionary link is allowed, and even if it is, is leaving it undefined an enticement to read the article or move on? I don't know... EdChem (talk) 05:35, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
- I am fine with the translation in ALT1, thanks for asking my opinion (though if I disagreed, I would still defer to Jo-Jo Eumerus as a native speaker). Assuming Wiktionary links are OK in DYK hooks, I would link empyreumatic. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:01, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
I am OK with omitting the wiktionary link in the DYK hook. My read of the German is that its use as a mordant should be abandoned because there are cheaper and cleaner alternatives "today" (as of 1889). I can see the alternate reading that it is that particular means of synthesizing it that should be abandoned (the original is not super clear). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 22:54, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
QPQ review done (Template:Did you know nominations/Sheku Kanneh-Mason). @Jo-Jo Eumerus: Are you satisfied on the chemistry content, and with the wording proposed in ALT1? @Ruhrfisch: Do you have a view on the chemistry, in light of the query Jo-Jo raised? Thanks to you both. EdChem (talk) 09:06, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
- QPQ is OKish. Paging back the German language source, it refers to aluminium sulfacetate in such a way that it suggests it is only talking about a particular way of preparing it. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Jo-Jo Eumerus: I have struck ALT1. I have looked more at the source, and agree with your reading. I'm glad that a native speaker of German has undertaken this review, or my mistake might not have been caught. I have edited the article to reflect my understanding, but would appreciate your checking it. I am consequently proposing ALT2:
- (ALT2): ... that an 1899 publication recommended that use of an impure aluminium sulfacetate preparation as a mordant "should be abandoned" as it is an "empyreumatic liquid"?
- I think this is accurate, but am happy to edit further if I have still not reflected the sources. I also note your comment that my QPQ is "OKish", and I'm happy to address any specific issues you might have. Thanks. EdChem (talk) 00:08, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
- Now it does fit the source. I wonder where the pyroligneous acid is mentioned, though.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:33, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
- Pyroligneous acid is the more precise but also more technical name for wood acid, which is the name for it in the German-language source. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on the German again.) Wood acid is a red-link, but maybe I should make it a redirect and then use the more simple term. EdChem (talk) 10:42, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 12:47, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
- Pyroligneous acid is the more precise but also more technical name for wood acid, which is the name for it in the German-language source. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on the German again.) Wood acid is a red-link, but maybe I should make it a redirect and then use the more simple term. EdChem (talk) 10:42, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
- Now it does fit the source. I wonder where the pyroligneous acid is mentioned, though.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:33, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
