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Template:Did you know nominations/Adeline Palmier Wagoner

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:24, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

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Adeline Palmier Wagoner

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Adeline Palmier Wagoner
Adeline Palmier Wagoner
  • ... that Adeline Palmier Wagoner (pictured) wrote Madame Beaulieu: A Colonial Dame, the biography of Angelique Chauvin Beaulieu, her great-great-grandmother, who became a social leader in late-18th-century Cahokia? Source: Johnson, Anne (1914). Notable women of St. Louis, 1914 ([1])
    • ALT1:... that Adeline Palmier Wagoner was the president of the St. Louis branch of the National Plant, Flower and Fruit Guild, a charity with the purpose to bring flowers and comfort foods to the poor and ill people? Source: Johnson, Anne (1914). Notable women of St. Louis, 1914 ([2])

Created by Elisa.rolle (talk). Self-nominated at 15:29, 5 August 2017 (UTC).

  • Comment: I have struck ALT1, as it is 207 characters (including spaces), above the 200-character DYK maximum. The original hook is now 199 characters (I've replaced "late XVIII century" with "late-18th-century"). BlueMoonset (talk) 19:36, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
Interesting life, on good sources, offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. The image is licensed and gives a good idea of the period. Using it, we then don't have to say when her great-grandmother lived ("Colonial" also says it), - I also don't think her name adds much, so suggest to shorten to
ALT2: ... that Adeline Palmier Wagoner (pictured) wrote Madame Beaulieu: A Colonial Dame, the biography of her great-great-grandmother who was a social leader [in the late 18th century]? - Article: I think it has many details about other women that are not really important for Wagenor's bio, but as these women are probably not notable on their own, it may be fine. Perhaps reduce details a bit, to keep the interest of a reader. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:26, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
  • ALT3: ... that Adeline Palmier Wagoner (pictured) wrote Madame Beaulieu: A Colonial Dame, the biography of her ancestor, social leader in the frontier territory of Cahokia?
I think it's important to maintain the reference to Cahokia. I removed some details from the article but not much since I had already reduced it from source. Elisa.rolle (talk) 18:39, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Thank you, - please then add "frontier territory" to the article with a source. I have a writing job now, will return to this tomorrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:53, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
  • The Cahokia wikilink appears to go to an unrelated article. The correct wikilink, if there is one, will need to be used. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:42, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
The wikilink is correct, the territory is now a National Park, due to her pre-colombian value. It's a territory between St. Louis and Chicago.Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:52, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
I changed the wikilink to the village by the same name which is near the National Park.
  • I have just removed the phrase "frontier territory" before "Cahokia"; this is not in the original Johnson source, and the article on Cahokia, Illinois, characterizes it as a thriving town in the 18th century. Illinois Country was territory controlled by the French until the Treaty of Paris (1783), but if there was ever a named "Cahokia Territory" I'd want to see a source with that designation for it to be used in article and hook. I've also removed the link to what appears to be the wrong Governor Reynolds (who was a Missouri governor rather than an Illinois one as specified in the text). Here's ALT4, a revision of ALT3:
What I find most interesting is what Johnson never comes out and says: Wagoner's great-great-grandmother Angelique was French, so she and her husband settled in one of the significant towns French-controlled Illinois Country, only to have the area they lived in formally handed over to the control of the newly independent United States in 1783 when Angelique was 41. (Do we have any idea how old she was when she died?) One possibility: adding something along the lines of "a French-controlled town in Illinois Country" to the end of ALT4. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:19, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
If we want to trust Find a grave she died in 1826 [3]. I want to write an article about her sooner or later. The book should be in PD so if I can find it, and is not too difficult to read, I will read it.
ALT5: ... that Adeline Palmier Wagoner (pictured) wrote Madame Beaulieu: A Colonial Dame, the biography of her ancestor, a social leader in Cahokia, a French-controlled town in Illinois Country? Elisa.rolle (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Elisa.rolle, I wouldn't consider Find-a-grave to be a reliable enough source for an article, but it's a good indication. (Please don't forget to add a sig to all your posts!) Although I suggested adding the phrase to ALT4 that you've used in ALT5, hooks are only allowed to include sourced information from the article; since the article does not currently include such information, it must be added to the article with appropriate sourcing to be used in the hook. Sorry for creating more work, but it's a necessity for DYK inclusion. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:12, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
  • added to the article as well Elisa.rolle (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
  • But not sourced, which is a requirement for all hook facts. You've placed the information in the middle of material reprinted from Johnson, but the Johnson source cannot be cited for it; you'll need to insert sourcing that confirms Cahokia was both French-controlled and in Illinois Country. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:10, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Comment: why don't we stay with ALT4, and leave the French stuff for the grandmother's article? Still busy with Killmayer and RL. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:31, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Ok for me to go for ALT4

Ok, starting over, strike all but ALT4. What do you think of rearranging a bit: placing the great-great-grandmother and everything related, including the map, at the end under Family? Because first we want to know about Adeline. - Angelique needs an explanation, wherever she appears. - I still think the work of the National Plant, Flower and Fruit Guild is given in too much detail, but will not fight ;) (Compare the composer.) - Infobox? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I like it better. Next question: the lead (which could be longer) says she's a lyricist, but the article says that was her mother. Perhaps move the sentence about the mother to where she is mentioned: it sets the stage for how Adeline grew up. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Not sure what you are saying, the article says: "On December 6, 1917, World News published a song by Wagoner, Little Orphant Annie's Tale of the War, dedicated to the National Council of Defense. Always in 1917, Music News published other two songs, Mammy's Song and The Mother Heart (Scotch lullaby). ALSO Wagoner's mother was a lyricist, she wrote the words for Let Us Sing of Old Missouri, music by Johanna Mohr, arranged by Esther M. Harkins." Also the mother was a lyricist, but the sentence is about the lyrics wrote but Wagoner. I do not think moving the sentence about the mother up is a good idea. Elisa.rolle (talk) 17:07, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, the article is—when one reads the sources—wrong about Wagoner's supposed music lyrics. It claims that Music News "published other two songs". First, there are no lyrics given for these songs; the song titles are simply listed as part of musicale program, which involves performances both musical and otherwise. And, indeed, Wagoner is credited with two sets of readings (credits are given after each program section here): each consists of two "pieces", probably poems, though they could be prose, and both are followed, after Wagoner's name, with musical sets, the first two pieces performed by Bamberger and Watts, and the final set of three pieces performed by Mildred Wallace. "Mammy's Song" is written by Harriet Ware (composer and perhaps lyricist as well)—it's on several other programs in this issue of the magazine—and "The Mother Heart" is credited to Gaines. (It isn't the only Scotch lullaby in the magazine, so I'm guessing it's a genre that was in favor at the time, but in any event the phrase "Scotch lullaby" wouldn't be part of the song name.) I'm also not sure that the assumption that "Little Orphant Annie's Tale of the War" is a song lyric is valid—it could just as easily be a poem, and there is no tune given that would allow the assumption here to be a safe one. Finally, and a minor point compared to the above, the sentence begins "Always in 1917", which makes no sense in context. Perhaps "In that same year" would have been appropriate, but as the entire sentence is not backed up by the facts, the whole needs to go, and the rest of the article should probably be reviewed to be sure it correctly reflects the sourcing, given the basic errors here. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:25, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
  • "Little Orphant Annie's Tale of the War" is for sure by Wagoner, and if you click on the source (provided) you can read it all. I removed the "lyricist" sentences and I moved the mother's info (another source you can verify by clicking on it) up in the mother section. All the sources are clickable if someone want to verify them, but removing that sentences, what remain is that she was the president of the charitable society and that she wrote the book about her great-grandmother. Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:24, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
ALT4. I appreciate that she isn't called "a lyricist" when she wrote lyrics for one published song, - compare Luther who wrote several 500 years ago that are still known worldwide today. I approve ALT4 without digging in the sources, - no fact left in the article seems contentious to me. Other opinions welcome. The composer is on the Main page now, under recent deaths, a first for me. I wrote an epitaph for him, - a study of lyricists ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:24, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
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