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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Action Saybusch

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Women awaiting transport during Action Saybusch, 1940

My personal preference. Thanks Piotr. Poeticbent talk 16:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Even better. Thanks Sandstein. Poeticbent talk 15:16, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Created/expanded by Poeticbent (talk). Self nom at 19:29, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

  • An interesting and important article. It meets the formal criteria (length, age...), but I don't think it's ready for the front page.
  • The hook is problematic: it is difficult to understand, does not draw the reader's interest and above all lacks context: it does not make clear that this is about a World War II Nazi atrocity.
  • While not a DYK criterium, the prose quality is inadequate for an article that is to be featured on the front page. The text is replete with spelling errors such as "Ghetoized" or "targetted"; or errors that reflect that English is not the writer's first language, such as "knew Polish" instead of "spoke Polish".
  • All sources but one are not in English, so I cannot readily verify the article's accuracy and neutrality, or the citation of the hook fact. The one English source cited, [1], does not mention the "Action Saybusch".
  • With respect to plagiarism, it is not clear how much text has been translated (without attribution) from the Polish version. I checked one paragraph, pl:Akcja Saybusch#Śledztwo IPN, whose Google translation begins as follows:
"Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes Against the Polish Nation at the National Remembrance Institute in Katowice has investigated the Shares. The purpose of the investigation was primarily to collect data and materials and establish the identity of the displaced persons, of whom interviewed a total of 485th (...)"
This article's version begins very similarly:
"Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes Against the Polish Nation at the Institute of National Remembrance in Katowice has investigated the Action Saybusch in recent years. The purpose of the IPN investigation was primarily to collect data and materials and establish the identity of the displaced persons. The total of 485 living victims have been interviewed. (...)"
Overall, this article needs substantial work before it can make a main page appearance.  Sandstein  09:51, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Sandstein, for such a thorough review. Much appreciated. I fixed the spelling and machine errors. Apparently, I didn't run a spell-checker through the final version before I submitted the article to DYK. Sorry, normally it never happens. – That's why a second pair of eyes is priceless. I italized some of the foreign phrases and refined i-links. I changed the "knew Polish" to "spoke Polish" as suggested, although I do remember wondering whether the soldiers actually spoke Polish (perhaps some), because eye-witness Helena Szatanikowa said, that all of them carried big warrants printed in the Polish language anyways.[2]
    Action Saybusch is a little known event in the English speaking world, that's why the Polish refs are a main source of info (I tried), although they can also be machine-translated to confirm at least the facts, while skipping the grammar. – The first paragraph in the closing section was an unfortunate slip in my narration. I already fixed that. I think I need to stop using Google page-translate for text that requires confirmation. In pl.wiki nothing was supported by references so I copy-pasted that content here and started looking. The Polish wiki followed the source. I think I found it.[3] The attribution goes back to reprint from Trybuna by Malwina Palińska. I included that source in my references, and also rephrased everything else in that paragraph. Thanks again... Looking forward to a go-ahead. Poeticbent talk 16:48, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
The recent edits are clear improvements, although some copyediting remains to be done. E.g., "Polenlagers" should probably be pluralized in German as "Polenlager"; "others were forced to beg" sounds wrong in English as "beg" is a mistranslation of what I assume is the Polish equivalent of the German betteln, i.e., asking strangers for money to support oneself. (Sorry, I can't come up with the correct English translation right now.) Look out for missing "the"s, as in the hook "deportations to the General Government", or in the article "escaping the Soviet front", or "disappointed with the simple wooden cottages". But that is not necessarily a bar for DYK. I would prefer that a second review be carried out by an editor who reads Polish and can evaluate the sources.  Sandstein  17:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
According to source, the phrase "Polenlagers" is already anglicized as plural. BTW, all Definite articles are now fixed. Thanks again. Poeticbent talk 14:26, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
I am not sure I like ALT1. The expulsions kept happening, only the target changed. I'd suggest rewriting it as "was one of the first", or in a similar fashion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 21:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Commenting on alt 2 and 3: Reichsgau Wartheland is not mentioned in article's text, it would have to be fixed. Also, could you cite reference(s) that make that assertion (connecting Lebensraum, Reichsgau Wartheland, and AS being the first test)? Sorry for being difficult here, but DYKs do need to avoid OR. Otherwise we enter into a bad territory of spiraling errors... Here's my simple ALT4 that seems supported by sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 17:17, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
To be exact, it says in the article (section "The settlers") that Action Saybusch "was a pilot project meant to be followed by similar actions, but in March 1941 the SS-Obergruppenführer Hans Frank, Governor of General Government, objected to further overcrowding of his district.[1]" The question is whether the phrase "pilot project" is synonymous with the "test project"; anyhow, I like your last ALT also. Poeticbent talk 23:05, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
I think we can accept the unstriken alt 1 at the top, you should probably ping Sandstein to see if he is ok with it, too. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 19:28, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
As concerns the hook, I think it should have more context for readers unfamiliar with EE/WWII history, like:
"... that Action Saybusch was intended to be the first of several German expulsions of Poles from Silesia to the occupied General Government in World War II?". (See: ALT2 at the top)
"Poles" is a common word for the people and probably does not need linking per WP:OVERLINK, like "German". As to formally clearing the article for DYK, I do not have any outstanding objections at this point, but would prefer it if it were to be done by a person who can read the sources.  Sandstein  05:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
  • We're allowed to assume good faith on foreign sources. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:16, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
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