Template:Did you know nominations/Abebe Bikila

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 03:42, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Abebe Bikila

(

• Back to T:TDYK
• Article history

)

Abebe Bikila in 1968

• ... that Abebe Bikila (pictured) was not sponsored by Adidas and he did not carry "the fucking shoes" in the men's marathon at the 1964 Tokyo Olympics?
  Source for hook fact: "He was wearing shoes and white socks... 'He has other commitments.' They were Pumas... [Kihachiro Onitsuka] suspected that Bikila was being paid by Puma." (Bikila by Tim Judah)
  Source for "the fucking shoes": "[Abebe] won the Rome Olympics running barefoot. He was then sponsored by Adidas. He ran the next Olympics; he carried the fucking shoes." (Weapons of Self-Destruction by Robin Williams [1][2])

• Reviewed: Starship Troopers
• Comment: Request special occasion date: July 21 (Robin Williams' birthday) or August 7 (Abebe Bikila's birthday)

Improved to Good Article status by Janweh64 (talk). Self-nominated at 06:06, 1 July 2017 (UTC).

• This article is new enough and long enough. The hook facts are cited inline, the article is neutral and I detected no copyright problems. I will move it to the special holding area for August 7th. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

• Returned from prep for further discussion, per discussion at WT:DYK#Prep 4 - Adebe Bikila. Yoninah (talk) 13:48, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at WT:DYK

... that Abebe Bikila (pictured) was not sponsored by Adidas and he did not carry "the fucking shoes" in the men's marathon at the 1964 Tokyo Olympics? Alex Shih, Cwmhiraeth, Janweh64. Here for a few things: I don't understand the hook really, presumably many individuals were not sponsored by Adidas? It's not clear why anyone would be "carrying" shoes, "fucking" or otherwise, in a marathon. I'm struggling to make the link between clause A and clause B. This will no doubt get the "think of the children" treatment if it runs with that swearing, but that's a side-issue. Perhaps someone could elucidate. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:07, 2 August 2017 (UTC) The fact that you have difficulty understanding the hook means that it is "hooky"; you will need to read the article to understand its significance. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:39, 2 August 2017 (UTC) Not at all, I just pass it by thinking that it's somehow an error. If it's designed to be "quirky" then it shouldn't be in slot number one. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:43, 2 August 2017 (UTC) So, a comedian made a non-notable joke filled with factual errors decades after the death of this great athlete, and that is the hook we choose to highlight this GA? It's the kind of information which shouldn't even be in the article in the first place, never mind "gracing" our front page. "The fact that you have difficulty understanding the hook means that it is "hooky"" is the kind of response one might expect here from some though. No, this doesn't make the hook "hooky" at all. If this was some well-known meme that got debunked, fine. But this? This isn't hooky, it's the typical frustrating trivia which some people here confuse with interesting, enticing, noteworthy, or even mildly amusing facts. Fram (talk) 09:20, 2 August 2017 (UTC) Some thoughts... This hook is not quirky, it's weird. With the Robin Williams joke / meme not well known, it's also obscure, at best. Since when did jokes become RS for hook content – see the nomination The quotation is misleading, as it appears in the hook to come from Adebe. The "fucking" was situationally appropriate in the joke, I guess... here, it is gratuitous. This should be pulled and a new hook proposed for the 7 August date requested. Possible hooks might be: (ALT1): ... that Abebe Bikila (pictured) was the first man to successfully defend an Olympic marathon gold medal, and did so by breaking his own world record? (ALT2): ... that Abebe Bikila (pictured) set a world record in winning the 1960 Men's Olympic marathon, and ran the race in bare feet / without shoes? (ALT3): ... that Abebe Bikila (pictured) won consecutive Olympic gold medals in the Men's Marathon, both in world record times, the first without shoes / in bare feet? We can surely come up with something better than the hook presently in the prep. EdChem (talk) 12:37, 2 August 2017 (UTC) Thank you, EdChem. ALT1 is very good, but there is no inline cite to the fact that it was his own world record that he broke. ALT2 is good, but I think ALT3 is even better, as it mentions both his Olympic wins. The ALT3 hook refs are verified and cited inline. Promoting ALT3 to prep. Yoninah (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2017 (UTC) Chiming in late here, but to be honest I like the original hook a lot—it made me click over to see what it meant when I saw it in the nominations pile, which is basically the point of a hook. ALT3 is a cool standalone fact, which doesn't require reading the article to conceptualize. ALT0 is fun, interesting, and requires a click-through. --Usernameunique (talk) 21:18, 2 August 2017 (UTC) All Alt hooks are vastly superior than the promoted one. Thanks to Ed for creating some viable options. I prefer some variation on alt 2. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:28, 2 August 2017 (UTC) Complete and utter bullshit. This is how the article appeared before I began working on it and improved it to GA: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abebe_Bikila&oldid=759090731 It contained the following misinformation taken from a horrible "biographical" book written by Paul Rambeli, a work of fiction clearly labeled that Wikipedia editors failed to see as an unreliable source. "Abebe was included in the Ethiopian Olympic team only at the last moment, as the plane to Rome was about to leave" "Adidas, the shoe sponsor at the 1960 Summer Olympics, had few shoes left when Abebe went to try out shoes and he ended up with a pair that didn’t fit comfortably, so he couldn't use them" This was propagated by Robin Williams, by a joke perhaps made now notable with Wikipedia's help in spreading it. These false statements have been spread by Wikipedia since March 3, 2007 (TEN YEARS AGO!): https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abebe_Bikila&diff=prev&oldid=112385552 Think of the damage done since then. This hook was an attempt to offer a retraction and correction. None of the ALT hooks are hooky. The ALT statements are things most people, with any interest in the subject, already know. If this hook offends your sensibilities save it for April 1. I object to changing the hook. And ask for a serious consideration as the person who has worked months to get this article to where it is. I suspect none of the people above care about the RS or Notability issues they mention. This is an attempt to remove the "fucking" by any means, which is exactly what makes it hooky. —አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 04:39, 3 August 2017 (UTC) References Firstly, WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Secondly, DYK isn't necessarily for people "with any interest in the subject", it's on the main page so will attract allcomers. Thirldy, no-one said it offends their sensibilities, just "fair warning" was given concerning the fact that using such expletives on the main page invariably results in drama. So in summary, no, it's not "an attempt to remove the "fucking" by any means" by any means, it's an attempt to generate a hook that's readable and interesting, the original hook was neither of these. The Rambling Man (talk) 05:59, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

New hooks proposed during that discussion:

• (ALT1): ... that Abebe Bikila (pictured) was the first man to successfully defend an Olympic marathon gold medal, and did so by breaking his own world record?
• (ALT2): ... that Abebe Bikila (pictured) set a world record winning the 1960 Men's Olympic marathon, running the race barefoot?
• (ALT3): ... that Abebe Bikila (pictured) won consecutive Olympic gold medals in the Men's Marathon, both in world record times, the first without shoes?
• Yoninah (talk) 10:43, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

I do not like any of the ALTs above as they are self-contained statements that do not hook the reader into the article for more detail. They are not hooky, they are simply succinct interesting statements that the reader will say hmm interesting and move on. Instead I propose the following alternative to address the complaint that the "quotation is misleading".

• (ALT4): ... that Olympic marathoner Abebe Bikila (pictured) was never sponsored by Adidas and he did not carry "the fucking shoes" as Robin Williams joked?

This is hook will result in a much higher click-though rate into the article which is the ultimate goal. DYK is not meant to recognize the accomplishments of the subject. Correct me if I am wrong but is it meant to celebrate the contributions of editors and to encourage collaboration and interest in newly improved articles. With ALTs 1,2,&3, the reader does not even have to read past the lead section and in some instances past the first paragraph to get the information. This is probably as far as the ALT hook's creator read as well.  —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

• I personally find it offensive to try to draw in views, especially to an article about a high-caliber athlete, by using derogatory language. And adding Robin Williams' name to the hook is bizarre, considering he made the joke 36 years after the athlete's death. The hook fact about Bikila running world-record races without shoes, as in ALT2 and ALT3, is enough for me to want to click on the article and read more about him. (I would not stop at the lead.) And if you're lucky enough to get the image slot, you will get a whole lot more clicks, too. Yoninah (talk) 22:00, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

That's fair. What about this tidbit that is not found by simply reading the lead:

• (ALT5): ... that Olympic marathoner Abebe Bikila (pictured) was briefly arrested following an attempt to dethrone Emperor Haile Selassie, in which Abebe had no involvement?

I believe this is a fair compromise. —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 12:51, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, how is this a compromise? You're writing about a respected athlete who won two Olympic marathons in a row with world-record times, and trying to hook readers with some false accusation? I don't even find the hook interesting. I've been working at DYK for many years, and I can assure you that ALT2 or ALT3 with a picture will bring in thousands of clicks. Yoninah (talk) 22:57, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I was just pulled into reading the article by the idea that a 1960 Olympic marathon was won by someone running barefoot. Yoninah is right: that's going to get far more attention than a false arrest in a coup attempt, or the obscure (and inaccurate) post-death joke by Williams that simply doesn't work in hook form. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:06, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Fine.  —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 23:30, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

• Approving ALT2 or ALT3, both of which are verified and cited inline. I tweaked the hooks. Rest of review per Cwmhiraeth. Note to prep promoter: please try to return this to the image slot. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 00:26, 13 August 2017 (UTC)