Talk:Zygmunt Szendzielarz/Archive 1

Archive 1

Dubingiai

Maybe something about the "Dubingiai massacre" should be included? heqs 21:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Indubitably. Dr. Dan 17:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Lysy^talk 20:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Curious

The article states that ZS was arrested in April 1944, and exchanged for "captured" German officers. Just curious where or who did the Germans release him to? Dr. Dan 17:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

According to Kozłowski, this is not clear. He gives two versions: first (which he claims to be doubtful) is that ZS escaped from a transport from Kaunas to Vilnius, the other is that he was released by Germans at the end of April. Kozłowski does not mention anything that he was "exchanged" nor anything about the whereabouts of his release. --Lysy^talk 23:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

In that case do you think that the article represents the events concerning his April 1944 capture accurately. Or do we need to back off a little and state that these events are not all that clear? Where does Kozlowski get his information from? How do we know that "Lithuanian" collaborators turned him in. How did this motley band disarm and capture him? Does Kozlowski allow for the possibility that Belarusian collaborators or even Polish traitors betrayed him. Or that an error on ZS' part led him under the noses of the Germans himself? In any case I should think, regardless of what Kozlowski thinks (in versions one or two), that the article most definitely implies capture, exchange, and release. So we need to put all of these ducks in a row and explain what's being told here exactly. And I'm not trying to make a conjecture here as much as I'm trying to stimulate a dialog to improve the information in this article. Dr. Dan 23:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The article seems to present his capture accurately (while vaguely, but this is an encyclopaedic article, not a narrative). As for his release, I don't know where the statement that the Home Army as a reprisal arrested several dozen German officials comes from and had just requested a citation for this in the article. --Lysy^talk 00:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

If you read the article history for January 4, 2007, you'll know where the statement that the Home Army as a reprisal arrested several German officials comes from. The article then implies that after ZS was captured, he was exchanged for these Germans. Or doesn't it? Dr. Dan 01:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

January 4 ??? I don't think he was exchanged. The Germans were captured and Łupaszko was released, not the Germans. --Lysy^talk 01:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, January 4, but 2005 not 2007, (my bad). So then, the Germans were captured, and Lupaszko was released, and the Germans remained prisoners. Right? Is this in both versions of the story? Dr. Dan 01:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what happened to the captured Germans. As for ZS, one version was that he was released, the other that he escaped (see above). --Lysy^talk 02:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Well at least you can understand my confusion then. And I have a small grasp of the events that took place. Imagine someone trying to make heads or tales out of all of this who never heard of any of this before. Dr. Dan 02:24, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and then another theory is that he was released, as Germans attempted to act "friendly" and win the sympathy of Armia Krajowa as a potential ally against the Soviets. I think we should stick to bare facts here: He was captured by Lithuanian police in Vilnius, handed over to the Germans, kept in Gestapo prison in Kaunas, then released or escaped in unclear circumstances at the end of April. That's all we know. --Lysy^talk 02:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Good now that that's settled, perhaps you can formulate how best to include his participation in the Dubingiai massacre. Lest it be misrepresented. Dr. Dan 19:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

As for Kozłowski's book, I have not read it enough to have an opinion on it, but it is quite referenced and seems reasonable at a first glance. Also Rytm is a rather respectable publisher. Kozłowski himself is a young historian from Toruń University. This can be considered both to his advantage or disadvantage, depending on your point of view :-) Anyway, this is the only source that I have at hand, and as I said, seems reasonable, as he tends to present not the only "true" interpretation of the events, but uses the available historiography of the subject and presents different versions where they exist. --Lysy^talk 00:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

You asked about Kozłowski's sources. For this event he cites works of Siemaszko, Fikus, Banasikowski, Smalewski, Wilamowski, Łabuszewski, Krajewski, Pisarczyk, Christa, and Aleksandrowicz. --Lysy^talk 00:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

About the captured German officials, indeed, his unit attempted this but mostly failed, and captured only a couple of German officers and a starost. --Lysy^talk 00:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

About ZS capture: again there are several, slightly differing versions. What we know is that he was arrested by Lithuanian police during a visit to his mother-in-law in Vilnius and then handed over to Germans, who brought him to Gestapo prison in Kaunas. All the versions seem to agree that the Lithuanians arrested him accidentally. --Lysy^talk 00:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

How many versions are there? Dr. Dan 01:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Two are being mentioned explicitly. Both boil down to that Lithuanians did not expect him there. One assumes that they were looking for someone else (because of a partisan action in the neighbourhood), and the other that they were routinely controlling the apartment. --Lysy^talk 01:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Remove tags?

It doesn't seem like there's much controversy over this article judging by the talk page and that the major issues have been resolved. Is it ok to remove the two tags then? If not, what needs to be done?radek (talk) 00:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Dubingiai

"On June 23, two squads of his brigade (commanded by "Maks" and "Rakoczy") attacked the Lithuanian policemen in Dubingiai and mass-murdered the civilians of the village."

this seems like a pretty severe accusation which needs to be sourced. Loosmark (talk) 20:46, 1 November 2008 (UTC)