Talk:Zwinger

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Military history: Fortifications / Medieval

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Lack of translation

Maybe one might add, that "zwingen" means 'to coerce' or 'to enforce' in german. A "Zwinger" may be understood - although it is not a used term in modern german - as a mean of defensive which buys time for the attacked, hence it coerces the aggressive forces to deal with another obstacle yet to overcome before storming the actual aim/walls/defensiv works.--85.178.36.71 (talk) 14:46, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done. But it would good to have a reference for that. --Bermicourt (talk) 19:19, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unneeded German term and article - AGAIN. See English "outer ward/bailey"

All of enWiki is riddled with it. Why is this article needed when we have Bailey (castle)? Arminden (talk) 11:14, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"The term is German and usually left untranslated."

Really??!! One can read piles of English castellology books, where the feature is often described, and never once come across the German word. This Germanisation-gone-mad is a mania taking hold on enWiki. Maybe books poorly translated from German use it. Or it can be mentioned as a German term for a specific, gate-related form of inner bailey (if that indeed is correct) and in association with barbicans. But to declare all Crusader inner baileys as "zwingers" is utter nonsense. Each language deserves its autonomy. English certainly does. Arminden (talk) 11:30, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

... And now I see it's a pet project of Bermicourt – why am I not surprised? At all? Our beloved inventor of "English" terms which only exist in German, but hey!, why not use them in English, too? Zwinger comes from zwingen, it's such an evocative German word (shame it doesn't evoke anything to English native-speakers), so here it comes! Along with a ready-made German Wiki article, duly translated word for word by our friend, from Goethe's to Willy's mother tongue. Pictures, plans, and examples from across the world, all readily offered by our German colleagues. Is no one awake in the enWiki castles/fortresses department? Arminden (talk) 11:50, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop the sarcasm and go and do some actual research. If you read the right books you'll find the word "Zwinger" is used in reliable English sources. And you'll also discover that German castellologists distinguish between a Zwinger and a Vorburg, but that corresponding terms are not much used in the English-speaking area presumably because, in Britain, castles weren't designed like European castles. But funnily enough this article is not about British castles. Bermicourt (talk) 12:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is no adequate translation, for "Zwinger" is definitely not a type of usual bailey. Any "Zwinger" of a fortification always had been precisely designed to break momentum of attackers. Additionally: Today's use of "Zwinger" is strictly limited to historical fortifications/ castles, as well as to big outdoor cages for (dangerous) dogs. The verb "zwingen" means to dominate or to impose one's will on animals or persons. "Bezwingen", which is even more focussed on the object, is a synonym for "to defeat" and implies complete control. Regarding castles still existing in authentic condition, a "Zwinger" still is not a nice place to rest - as in contrast, the bailey of a castle usually is. 2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF (talk) 13:12, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're right and I've just removed the text claiming that "Zwinger is a German word for outer ward or outer bailey" which it patently is not. The German term for the latter is Vorburg, sometimes Niederburg, untere Burg or äußere Burg. An outer bailey was multipurpose, usually containing the "workshops, stables and other ancillary features" according to Hill (2016). A Zwinger, on the other hand, was specifically intended, as the name clearly suggests, to force an attacker into entering its enclosed killing space where he could be destroyed or repulsed. Any permanent buildings or other features such as those found in an outer bailey would merely have provided cover for the enemy. Bermicourt (talk) 15:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]