Talk:Ziad Jarrah/Archive 1

Archive 1

Many sources state that his date of birth was May 11 1975, not 1974.

Agreed, 203. I've changed his DOB just now. 220.240.192.97 07:38, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)

source?

The article states: "According to the August 8, 2003 analysis of the plane's cockpit recordings by the United States investigators, Jarrah was told by a fellow hijacker to crash the plane into the Pennsylvania farmland because of a passenger uprising in the plane."

Is there a source for this? I'd never heard that before. Quadell 20:52, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ziad Jarrah: Featured Article Candidacy Discussion

My first self-nom. I see "Remember 9/11" stickers all over the place, but very few people know anything about the perpetrators. This is a detailed biography of one of the more interesting of the hijackers. Info culled from the 9/11 report, Congressional testimony, and several conspiracy sites for good measure. I listed this on Peer Review several weeks ago, and no one had any improvements to suggest. What do you think? – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 12:21, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

• Object. Some of the spacing looks funny on Mozilla Firefox (notably at the second image, where there's a giant gap between two paragraphs). No references, either. 219.93.174.110 13:14, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Can anonymous users vote? - Ta bu shi da yu 05:32, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • There are three external links, which are basically references. Is this good enough? (I'll fix the spacing problem presently.)
    • Sorry, that was my vote. Seems I got logged out by accident. The problem with spacing seems to be fixed; as for the references, I will support once they are converted to conform with Wikipedia:Cite sources (a task which shouldn't be too hard). For now, neutral. Support. Johnleemk | Talk 08:18, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • Done. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 14:16, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
• Support, as long as the spacing problem is fixed. (and references) Ambi 13:38, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support Neutral. I guess that he came from a Muslim family though he went to a Catholic school. This should be stated explicitly, I think. It confused me. Andries 16:23, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Yes, you're right. I'll make that more clear. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 22:06, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
• Object for now. The lead section needs expansion. It should present an overview/summary of the article, but currently misses parts of the article (such as the identity issue). Also, a little more context would be good. See Wikipedia:Lead section. Other than this, support. Jeronimo 18:23, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Okay, this is done. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 18:09, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Surprisingly NPOV for such a controversial figure, excellent work. Zerbey 00:41, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)]] 11:22, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I expected to see POV ranting, but this is a good NPOV article! Anárion 13:56, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Wow. Well written, very informative and fascinating. func(talk) 21:44, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

visit to father

"he again flew to Beirut to visit his father, who was having open-heart surgery"

To me, that sounds like he visited his father while he was having open-heart surgery at the same time...obviously that's probably not the case. Was Jarrah's visit to his father before or after the surgery? I know maybe I'm being a bit nitpicky, but it seems unclear to me. -Frazzydee|✍ 01:08, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It should be ". . .who was scheduled to have. . .". I'll change it. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)} 19:11, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

Target?

The article claims that the target of the hijacked flight was either the Whitehouse or the Capitol... is that substantiated by the references given? Remains unclear to me. Some have claimed that CIA Langley would be the target. --130.233.136.69 12:31, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes. The 9/11 Commission Report states that the target was either the Whitehouse or the Capitol, and that Osama bin Ladin and other al Qaida members even argued about which it would be. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)} 19:11, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

Protect?

I lost count of vandalism since this article appeared on main page. Why don't you protect it?

One of those most importat ideals of wikipedia is that any page can be edited (with a tiny, tiny handful of exceptions such as the main page and the copyright notice). The featured article should exemplify those traits. Thus, even when a vandalism prone one (such as today's) is up, it shouldn't be protected. -- Your humble featured article director 21:04, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

Atta as teetotaler?

This paragraph is unsourced: "Reportedly, Ziad Jarrah and Mohammed Atta had several conflicts during this period. Atta was a strict, severe man who would not even listen to music other than prayer chants, whereas Jarrah was lax, westernized, and had frequent contacts with his family and girlfriend. Their disagreements appear to have been resolved by the day of the attack, however"

Where is this from? Other reports have suggested that Atta was not quite so devout, and at least one reporter (Daniel Hopsicker) claims that he drank, did drugs, had a stripper girlfriend and listened to rap music. The bartender at Shuckums apparently claims Atta got drunk with the rest of them that night and that the story that he just drank juice is wrong. Hopsicker's story may not be true but this claim that Atta would not even listen to music seems unlikely given what we know of his activities in florida. Anyway do we have a source for any of this? I really haven't researched it other than Hopsicker's book, which I take with a grain of salt (though I have seen footage of the interviews with Amanda Keller, Atta's supposed stripper girlfriend, and she seems perfectly credible to me). In any case lack of sourcing is a problem for several of the claims in this article. --csloat 5 July 2005 22:38 (UTC)

Since I have the same qualms about no sources for the statement, four months later, I'm going to remove it. Sherurcij 00:21, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment

I moved this comment from the article to here. I'm not sure if it should be incorporated into the article or not. – Quadell ^{(talk) (sleuth)} 11:02, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Addition of a witnesser from Duesseldorf in 1998:

I often spoke with Samir (that is the name, which I used) about his dreams of flying attacks against the United States. There was a big conflict of conscience inside of him, when he was ordered to kill as many people, as possible. I stopped all discussions with him, when he repeated the dream of an attack against the Twin towers at a time, when it was crowded with people and at that time he tried to get apart from Aysel, who was completely on my side. She did not agree to any terror and killing innocent people. Though he tried to depart from here, not to violate her to much, I am glad, that he did not stop the contact to her, and I think, that the last call to her, which was reported by the press, saved some lifes, possibly that of the president. But finally I must tell You, that I should not have opposed to the plan, to fly into one of the towers. If he was the pilot instead of Marwan, there would have been saved many more lifes.

Ziad was no bad man. Remember, that there were many American bomber-heroes in world-war II, who sacrificed their lifes to fly their attacks against innocent German people only, instead against military targets...The group of the "19" often spoke about that fact. I know all the other "heroes" of September 11th, too, not all of them personally... They were watched carefully, not only by agents of your and my state. I am no agent.

a student from Duesseldorf

Second addition: Maybe, I was the origin of that discussion: White House or Capitol. Though I did not believe, that Arabs could make any of their dreams become true, I opposed much against the orders to Samir to fly against the towers, while there were people in it and against flying into the Capitol, symbol of the American liberty. I did not appose against the targets White House and Pentagon. So, I am glad, that there might have been thoughts of humanity in Jarrah, which prevented the attack. Ask Aysel, she will know better, than I. There are some other witnessers here in Duesseldorf. Remember, the agents of the United States were present here, too. But they did not prevent anything, for these "heroes of September 11th" were the fighters who saved mankind from the aggression of the communistic Serbs, at the side of the American soldiers. Duesseldorf was the place of recovery for these originally fighters for freedom. I got nearly mad by those facts, but You know, these facts are true. I could not contact anyone and I am not alone with my experience... Just a few minutes ago there was deleteted a remark of a witnesser, who was most near to Samir. Sorry, give the right place to my comment, and delete, what You like to delete...

Thank You, Quadell, that is the right place.

Images

I know it's customary on the 9/11 hijacker's articles to use the FBI-released photo as the primary photo for the article, but I'm struggling with whether that should be the case on the notable exception of Jarrah. He was distinct from all the other hijackers, and it seems that should be reflected on first glance at the page, imho. But of course, I'm interested in hearing other's opinions on the matter, since I acknowledge it's fairly POV either way. (A friendly smiling light-skinned Jarrah, or a brooding, angry-looking dark-skinned Jarrah). Sherurcij 22:35, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Source for this?

The hijacker that day signed his name as "Zaid Jarrahi", which is very similar but not identical to Ziad Jarrah. His family claims he never spelled his name that way. While it doesn't sound unbelievable (esp considering the lease controversy), I can't find any reference for this. It says "that day" which implies it was at the airport, but the only hits I can find seem to be Wiki-mirrors. Help? Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 12:07, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Hrm, unrelated note, but his New York lease seems to have been printed from the http://www.blumberglegalforms.com/Forms/186.pdf template. shrugs, just an interesting fact Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 12:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

As per the Hamburg Cell, I am finding Authorities originally publicly claimed that Jarrah attended the same school in Hamburg as Mohamed Atta, Marwan Alshehhi and other known terrorists. Only after Jarrah's family provided documentation showing that Jarrah had attended a different technical school, a claim confirmed by the school itself supported by http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/09/18/inv.terror.jarrah/ CNN story], which seems to indicate that he did attend a different school. Same source quotes n the same day, the Los Angeles Times showed that to be a lie: "Federal authorities in Germany have withdrawn assertions that Jarrah at one time lived at or frequented the Hamburg apartment rented by the three. 'He never lived with the others. He had three different apartments during his time in Hamburg, but none in common with any of the other suspects,' a senior German official told The Times.[1]. Feel free to debate though Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 02:40, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

"Some have disputed whether the letter was a suicide note, since it referred to future meetings and contained scuba diving instructions."

I read the letter but couldn't find anything about scuba diving instructions. --129.13.186.1 21:04, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

THanks for the note, you made me do a little more research and I found this article which says The package also contained papers about Jarrah's flight training and scuba-diving instruction - so I guess there were other papers in the package than just his note to her. Thanks! Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 07:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The letter indeed does not contain references to scuba diving future meetings in this world. Beyond any doubt the letter can thus be considered a good-bye letter. He even suggests her to marry one day, by writing Dont be afraid of marrying again and Consider who you are and who would deserve you. --84.191.165.182 07:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

If (either of?) you would like to translate the contents of the letter yourselves, and paste them here, it would of course be very much appreciated. My German, sadly, does not extend much past Colonel Klink territory. Thanks! Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 07:41, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The original German letter is available here and an English translation is available here. I've only studied German at school for about seven years, but after a superficial glance I would say the translation looks kosher. —Gabbe 11:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Fascinating, thanks. It sure looks like a suicide note to me. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 14:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Photocopy of his German passport should be held by the FBI, given by landlord Charles Lisa. Any sign of a copy of this lying around anywhere? Please? Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 08:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Broken Reference Link

Thompson, Paul. (2002). Evidence of a second Ziad Jarrah. Retrieved October 11, 2004. --Fluppy 18:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• This page was archived by the Internet archive, so the link now points to there. -Aude (talk | contribs) 18:16, 28 March 2006 (UTC)