Talk:Zhabdrung Rinpoche

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Shabdrung / Zhabdrung

NB Shabdrung / Zhabdrung [zhabs drung] is a Tibetan title used for great lamas. It means "in front of"/ "in the presence of"/ "at the feet of"; cf http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/zhabs_drung

This title was, and still is used, to refer to many other lamas in Tibet besides Shabdrung Ngawang Namgyal and his incarnations. e.g. Shabdrung Ngawang Trakpa (zhabs drung ngag dbang grags pa),Tongkhor Shabdrung (stong 'khor zhabs drung), Shabdrung Migyur Dorje (zhabs drung mi 'gyur rdo rje), Dokhar Shabdrung (mdo mkhar zhabs drung), Palde Shabdrung (dpal sde zhabs drung), Tseten Shabdrung, and many others.

This article currently seems to assume that "Shabdrung" specifically refers to Shabdrung Ngawang Namgyal and his incanation lineage - this is not at all the case.

Chris Fynn (talk) 13:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article Shabdrung should be merged with Ngawang Namgyal and would be better titled Shabdrung Ngawang Namgyal.

Chris Fynn (talk) 04:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better if both were consolidated under "Shabdrung (Bhutan)." There were many Shabdrungs of Bhutan after Ngawang Namgyal, and the article it about the institution, not just the founder. Sylvain1972 (talk) 15:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If this Shabdrung is the one most commonly known by that title in English, and if there is no other title used by the various Shabdrungs which we can use as an alternative, then I don't see a problem with keeping this article at this title, and providing a disambiguation link to Shabdrung (disambiguation).—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 21:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Chris Fynn that this Shabdrung page/entry should be merged with the Ngawang Namgyal entry. Above explanation for not doing so is unneccessarily complicated. As it stands, it's a bit like having one entry for a particular Lama under the heading 'Rinpoche' and then another under the Lama's actual name. Conceptually it doesn't make sense and it's not user-friendly at all! Secondly there have not been any updates on the web as to the young tulku's whereabouts, post 2005. Seems like the trail has gone cold. Are he & his family still under house arrest? The original online news report on the Buddhist news channel (link on main page) has never been followed up with fresh info, only commentary & comments on various other sites. Please, in the interest of human rights and a free press, could those with credible information update the Shabdrung wikipedia page, or at least post or link here on the discussion page as to what you think may have happened to the Shabdrung Ngawang Namgyal tulku in the past two years. Thankyou.~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.8.229 (talk) 07:07, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I was saying if the term "Shabdrung" most commonly refers to this Shabdrung, then it would make sense to title the article Shabdrung. The situation with the term "Rinpoche" is different, since there is no one lama who is preponderantly known simply as "Rinpoche".

Nor is this "like having one entry for a particular Lama under the heading 'Rinpoche' and then another under the Lama's actual name." What we're trying to do here is to have one article about the Shabdrung lineage from the 17th century through the 21st, and another separate article about the 1st Shabdrung. We do this for all the major ṭülku lineages, cf Dalai Lama, Karmapa, Gyalwang Drukpa, Shamarpa.

That said, since there are other lamas known as "Shabdrung", I am at this point fairly neutral between keeping the current article title or moving it to a disambiguous title for clarity. If we are keeping the article on the lineage separate from the article on the 1st Shabdrung, the only suggestion for a new title that I know of is Shabdrung (Bhutan), which would be okay. Does anyone know how a Tibetan or Dzongkha speaker would make the distinction, if necessary, between this Shabdrung and others?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 16:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are many other incarnation lineages who used the title "Shabdrung" (do a search on TBRC.org on person "zhabs drung" to see what I mean). Having an article with the title of only "Shabdrung" is a bit like having an article titled "Rinpoche" or "His Holiness". This is an encylopedia - I think we should try to avoid ambiguity like this. When creating articles about Tibetan personages it is always useful to first search the TBRC database to see if there are other figures with the same name or title. Chris Fynn (talk) 05:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What title do you propose to move this article to?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 21:52, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we should move it to Shabdrung Rinpoche? That's the name Geoffrey Samuels uses in Civilized Shamans. That might be more distinctive than just "Shabdrung". There are various lamas who are called "Shabdrung" and many lamas who are called "Rinpoche", but probably fewer who are called both together.—Greg Pandatshang (talk) 19:55, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I've moved the page to Zhabdrung Rinpoche. "Shabdrung Rinpoche" was already talen by a re-direct. Anyway the Bhutanese historian Lopen Karma Phuntsho, Yoshiro Imeada, and many other good sources prefer the spelling Zhabdrung. Chris Fynn (talk) 07:16, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Timing of Shabdrung births

Are the dates of birth and death given in this article roughly correct? They appear to show that four of the Shabdrungs were born prior to the deaths of the previous yangsi, and in three of those cases the new Shabdrung was already at least 14 years old when the previous one died ... and the 5th Shabdrung was older than the 4th! Also, there appears to have been a gap of more than 20 years between the 1st and 2nd and the 11th and 12th Shabdrungs.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 17:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Remember there was more than one incarnation lineage recognized in Bhutan - and also some incarnations recognised in Tibet and Khams. The gap between the 1st and 2nd is because the death of Shabdrung Ngawang Namgyal was not announced - he was officially "in retreat" for all those years. (Much like the case of the 5th Dalai Lama) Chris Fynn (talk) 05:38, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To sort this out, I've made a separate chart for each of the main incarnation lineages. Chris Fynn (talk) 06:24, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

One of the best sources for this article would be:

Yoshiro Imaeda (2013). The Successors of Zhabdrung Ngawang Namgyel: Hereditary Heirs and Reincarnations. Thimphu: Riyang Books. p. 112. ISBN 978-99936-899-3-5.

as it is a well researched book, written by a noted scholar on Bhutan, specifically dealing with the successive Shabdrung incarnations.

Another recent source is:

Karma Phuntsho (2013). The History of Bhutan. Nodia: Random House India. ISBN 9788184003116.

Chris Fynn (talk) 07:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

10th Zhabdrung

I've removed the note about Jigdrel Ngawang Namgyal (born Pema Namgyel) as it was a poorly sourced controversial statement referring to a living person. There is a fairly recent photo of this tulku here. Chris Fynn (talk) 07:48, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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